Norm, I don’t think that is what Tom is talking about, in an exact sense.

The idea is to eliminate the 5.5, and adjust the butt guide and 2nd guide to achieve the proverbial bullseye.



Mark, Fuji did not do what you’ve described; automatically provide the perfect size and spacing. While I realize we are perhaps attending minutia that doesn’t need to be addressed, they have come up with software that provides size and spacing that works well in a general sense.

However, in a specific sense in regard to reel and line, they have not. Size and spacing can be adjusted beyond, to the physical dimensions of the particular reel and line. And, for me, custom rod building is all about specifics.

Norman Miller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I’m going down to my shop right now. I have a
> 7’ ultralight set up with a Minima 16 M, 8M, and
> 5M reduction train with size 4F runners.i love the
> way it performs. It casts smooth, quiet and long.
> I going to cut the 5M off and replace it with a 4F
> and see how it casts. I’ll let you what I get.
> I’ll give you an honest assessment.
> Norm

If the result of this "test" is anything other than "it still casts smooth, quiet and long" I'll just pull up my pant legs a bit and have a laugh. About the difference I would believe is that the set up with the 4F is not as "soulful."

Joel Wick Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Norm, I don’t think that is what Tom is talking
> about, in an exact sense.
>
> The idea is to eliminate the 5.5, and adjust the
> butt guide and 2nd guide to achieve the proverbial
> bullseye.
>
>
>
> Mark, Fuji did not do what you’ve described;
> automatically provide the perfect size and
> spacing. While I realize we are perhaps attending
> minutia that doesn’t need to be addressed, they
> have come up with software that provides size and
> spacing that works well in a general sense.
>
> However, in a specific sense in regard to reel and
> line, they have not. Size and spacing can be
> adjusted beyond, to the physical dimensions of the
> particular reel and line. And, for me, custom rod
> building is all about specifics.

With such light line I do not believe moving the other prior guides is going to matter at all. A millimeter of difference in one guide is not going to make any difference that could possibly be measured. Fuji makes great products but they also know how to sell more guides.

Joel,

Actually, I'd replace the 5 with the 4, not just eliminate the 5, but yes, you should adjust the other guides to accommodate the new 4. Although it's not going to take a lot as there's just not a worthwhile whit of difference there. The line only uses a small part of the ring. Using a bunch of different sizes just isn't necessary. Height and line path are more important than ring size once you get past the first guide or two.

.............

I did the test! There was no difference is casting distance or smoothness. I just replaced the 5M (match guide) in the 16M based reduction train with a 4F, which made for faster choking. I used a 7’ UL with a Shimano stradic 1000 filled with 6 or 8# braid (can’t remember the brand). I used a 3 gm (~1/10 oz) casting weight. My average distance was ~107 +/- 5 feet for both set ups. Made 10 casts with each set up. I was quite consistent with my distance and accuracy. I used a 100’ tape measure, so the measurements are real and not “guessaments”. I was not surprised by the results, I have mentioned numerous times before, there is a lot of flexibility in setting up a guide train. I have seen no real difference in moving in or out the butt guide and/or choke guide to get the progressive spacing I like. I have no problems moving the choke further out on longer rods to reduced the number of guides needed. I have also made a number of ultralight using a 12M, 6M to a 4M-low or 4F, and they casted very well. So bottom line is there is a lot of flexibly in setting up a guide train, so don’t let it intimate you, it’s not rocket science.
Norm

As I mentioned earlier my buddy broke the 16H off his rod restrung the rod and continued fishing. He told me he didn't notice any difference. His stripper was now his 8H guide located a long, long way from his reel. Sometimes I think we made this more difficult than it has to be.

The lighter and more supple the line, the more flexibility you have in guide sizing and placement before you run afoul of any sort of noticeable difference.

However, I would say that rod builders shouldn't get complacent about guide sizing and placement - always do the best you can. At some point further up the scale it does start to make a practical difference.

.................

Thanks for doing the experiment and reporting back the results Norm!!

With that information I will do the same and use a 16H 8H followed by 4F. I assume I can roughly follow the placement from anglers resource KR GPS but make sure it looks right as a bullseye, through the reduction guides.

Thanks for all the information and feedback. Really appreciate it I will probably have more as I go.

Our TU group takes a bunch of kids trout fishing each spring and we meet with the kids a couple of weeks prior to the fishing. I tell them the most important part of their outfit is the line. Reels need to be properly spooled and the line needs to be good quality. When someone invents the perfect line (supple, no memory, abrasion proof, minimal diameter and the perfect amount of stretch) rod building will be a lot easier. Until then I believe the line dictates a lot about guide selection and placement. Fuji is a great company and they have ton for rod builders, but they can't factor in every concievable line type into their guide recommendations. Thats where the builder becomes important.

Stan Daubinawski Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks for doing the experiment and reporting back
> the results Norm!!
>
> With that information I will do the same and use a
> 16H 8H followed by 4F. I assume I can roughly
> follow the placement from anglers resource KR GPS
> but make sure it looks right as a bullseye,
> through the reduction guides.
>
> Thanks for all the information and feedback.
> Really appreciate it I will probably have more as
> I go.


Stan- when Tom K tells you something you will be safe taking it to the bank, all day long.

Stan,
Actually when I build rods, I seldom build a rod with a specific reel in mind.

The reason is that for myself, I may have a rod for many many years. But over those years, reels change and my wish to try other reels go right along with the changes. As a result, I go for a mid reel size setup, so that light to heavy reels will work just fine on the rod.

Too many folks try putting the first guide quite close to the reel. Why.

There is little need to have a guide unless the rod is changing in diameter and power. i.e. if the rod does not flex during a cast nor when catching a fish - there is little need to have a guide at that location.

But, when a rod blank bends during a cast or when catching a fish, there need to be guides in that section of the rod to insure that the line follows the contour of the loaded blank.

This is readily apparent, but often some folks just charge blindly along installing guides on rod blanks where the particular guides in question are unnecessary.

Best wishes.

Thanks for reminding us that optimum rod performance depends upon several factors which must be considered and integrated. The "best" guides for a rod is certainly influenced by the rod, the reel, the line, and the person doing the casting.

Most of the rods I build are light freshwater rods on NFC blanks. Almost all of them start with a 16, 6 Minima with size 4 runners and a Fuji SIC tip top. I’ve tried adding an extra high frame guide but it made absolutely no difference whatsoever aside from added weight. I did recently get a few 12, 5, 3 sets in Minimas, but haven’t wrapped any rods with them yet. If you’re anywhere near Waukesha co and want to take a look at mine, you’re welcome to.

Jim, like your, friend i,ve been using a butt guide just tall enough to eliminate rod slap and then go to runners for light braids..this really reduces rod tip weight and makes.a firmer hook set.i build on mainly e glass that I cut back to five feet or less..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/20/2022 01:56PM by ben belote.

Scott thanks for the offer. I live in Fox Valley area. So maybe could arrange, and check them out. Turkey hunting this week. But could catch a Brewers game and check out your examples sometime.