So, I built a 10' surf rod for a spinner. Using the KR concept, my spool is 60mm, which means my stripper guide, or butt guide should be half that, which would be 30mm. I noticed in the sizing chart that for every guide size listed is NOT the true inside diameter. they are smaller, all of them. If I wanted a 30mm butt guide and stay true to the diameter that I needed, I would use the 40mm guide, which states that the I.D. is 30mm. That 40mm looks way to big as far as the eye is concerned. But if I go by the numbers, this would the correct guide to use. So now, I am really confused, not to be confused with I'm just confused. I checked a few different I.D. specs of all the guides we talk about and they are all smaller than what they call that size. So when someone says, or even if the Fuji Concept guide states "use a 30-20-12-10-10-10-10" are they really saying "use a 25-15-10-8-8-8-8? I do understand that maybe the smaller sizes change less than the stated size, but the bigger guides differences are huge. A 40mm guide size is really a 30? I have searched and searched for the answer to this question, and I have yet to find any topic on it. I think if we use the guide and it is in MM, which it is then, we should be going by the I.D. of, not what the actual "name" of the ring is. Kind of like a 2x4 stud is not a 2x4, its really 1.5x3.5. So confusing.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/13/2022 11:56AM by Fred Zimmermann.

Guide size is based on the OD of the ring not the ID. The iD of a guide can vary depending of the type of ceramic used, or not used.

Norm

But Norm, that does not answer the question. If you tell me to use 30-20-12-10-10-10-10-10, what are you saying? If I were to go buy those guides, I would not be getting 30-20-12-10-10-10-10, they would all be smaller and the largest ones would be a lot smaller. It is pretty clear that a 40mm guide is really a guide with a 30mm ID, but how to I take your answer? I know I am making sense here. When we say a guide size, are we only referring to the actual inside diameter? Or are we just tossing around guide names as jargon? I'm am not anyway trying to be smart here, I just want clarity. I think if it calls for a 30mm guide, then it should be a 30mm ID guide.

If Norm says buy a 30, buy a 30. If Norm says buy a zebra, buy a zebra.

Fred,

As a woodworker in my free time, I totally get the 2x4 reference. However, very much like that, we have standardized the language that we use in guides. As stated above the ID can be different depending on frame design, ring material, and frame material. Because all of these are ever-changing with different guide styles and materials the OD is a very easy way to standardize the naming. At American Tackle we offer all the measurements including the OD and ID so you can see the true measurements of each guide. Going back to your question because we have used the same language for years the idea of a 30-20-12-10-10-10-10-10 is what you should get.

I would also say if you ever have any questions please give us a call at American Tackle at 1-800-516-1750 and our awesome team can help you.

Kevin Landers

Marketing Manager
American Tackle Co.

Thanks Jim.
That’s just the convention for the way guides are sized, by OD not ID. Most rod builders understand this. If an insert is not used, like the old metal guides by Mildrum, Varmac, and others, the OD and ID will be the same. If there is an insert used, the ID will always be smaller than the OD. Some types inserts can be made thinner than other types of inserts. Therefore, the ID can vary dependent on the type of insert used. For example, Torzite is thinner than Sic, and in the smaller sizes this difference can be as much as a whole guide size. In larger guides the percentage change I less. This just the way it goes, so if a build calls for a size 30 buy the 30, the difference between the OD and ID has already been accounted for, and the ID is sufficiently large enough. In my opinion for spinning rods, ring size is not as important as guide height. Another thing for you to think about.
Norm

Norman Miller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks Jim.
> That’s just the convention for the way guides
> are sized, by OD not ID. Most rod builders
> understand this. If an insert is not used, like
> the old metal guides by Mildrum, Varmac, and
> others, the OD and ID will be the same. If there
> is an insert used, the ID will always be smaller
> than the OD. Some types inserts can be made
> thinner than other types of inserts. Therefore,
> the ID can vary dependent on the type of insert
> used. For example, Torzite is thinner than Sic,
> and in the smaller sizes this difference can be as
> much as a whole guide size. In larger guides the
> percentage change I less. This just the way it
> goes, so if a build calls for a size 30 buy the
> 30, the difference between the OD and ID has
> already been accounted for, and the ID is
> sufficiently large enough. In my opinion for
> spinning rods, ring size is not as important as
> guide height. Another thing for you to think
> about.
> Norm
I'm not saying I don't understand it, I do. I just don't understand the logic behind it.

Fred,
This has confused me in the far past but have since gotten over it. When a Fuji app is telling you to use a 30 mm guide they are telling you to use a Fuji 30 mm guide that is measured from the OD of the ring, that does not take into account the type of ring / thickness of ring used in the guide. It can only be concluded that the inner diameter doesn't matter to Fuji. You will have to get over it in order to proceed with the build if you are to follow Fuji's guidelines. There are many things that will not make sense until you try or experience them yourself and even after that you may not have a full understanding of it, because it is impossible to understand. I believe the software just puts (or at least it should) the line in the center of the rings, based on guide height, to the choke point. Norm, where can I buy a zebra from?
Lance

Metal ringed guides are measured inside to inside. Ceramic ringed guides are measured to the outside to outside of the ring, or the inside to inside of the frame.

There is no absolute rule that your butt guide be 1/2 the diameter of the spool diameter. It is a general rule of thumb and a couple or three mm difference one way or the other isn't going to make any difference.

..................

Also remember that the KR page on the Anglers resource will tell you what size the butt guide should be. As Herb said, it's more about height (angle) than ring size. Keep in mind that the KR concept is for braided line. It's probably not great for heavy mono or fluoro.

Fred,
Don’t feel rained on!!! I questioned the exact same thing when I first started building rods and I am certain others before me did as well. You are among the others who will undoubtedly continue to question guide ring sizes.
In reality, the present system is really silly, not precise or an accurate description of what really matters, the ACTUAL ring size OPENING. It makes it difficult in choosing the proper guide size when utilizing different brands, ring material, or ringed or ringless guides within a guide train. This is the first I have heard of a guide manufacturer affording both the OD and ID of their guides = my hat is off the American Tackle for doing so!!! But that is additional work for them and simply putting a bandaid on a significant wound.
When looking at the entire situation of guide sizes, in the final analysis the ONLY THING OF CONCERN is the ultimate size of the opening. Who cares if the frame opening is 20mm when the ID of the ring is actually 18mm??? The line passing through is confined by the ring, not the frame!!! It is my understanding that this all came about when ceramic inserts were first introduced and the manufacturers simply retained the old guide size even though it now had a (smaller ID) ring glued inside. It was an overlooked (possibly ignored) situation then and has become more erratic due to newer ceramics which can be thinner.
With all the “hair-splitting” involved in rod building, I am surprised that the ACTUAL ID of guides has been accepted and allowed to be DIFFERENT that the STATED size. I doubt any of us would be willing to accept paying for a 20oz beer at the pub but only receiving 18 oz simply because it poured into a smaller glass!!! I suppose that expecting the guide manufacturers to assume a logical, representative, actual size of their guides would be like attempting to push sewage against the tide.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

I get it Fred, if you are going to standardize anything, I feel like it should be the inside diameter. No matter what the ring material is, make the I.D. the same and let the O.D. vary.

Lance Schreckenbach Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fred,
> This has confused me in the far past but have
> since gotten over it. When a Fuji app is telling
> you to use a 30 mm guide they are telling you to
> use a Fuji 30 mm guide that is measured from the
> OD of the ring, that does not take into account
> the type of ring / thickness of ring used in the
> guide. It can only be concluded that the inner
> diameter doesn't matter to Fuji. You will have to
> get over it in order to proceed with the build if
> you are to follow Fuji's guidelines. There are
> many things that will not make sense until you try
> or experience them yourself and even after that
> you may not have a full understanding of it,
> because it is impossible to understand. I believe
> the software just puts (or at least it should) the
> line in the center of the rings, based on guide
> height, to the choke point. Norm, where can I buy
> a zebra from?
> Lance

Thank you Lance. Yea, I'm good. I just happened to be working on the exact blank yesterday that was the blank in question, I threw all the "precise" stuff out the window, fudged the choke point a little bit and came out with a better rod after test casing a few different combinations.

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Metal ringed guides are measured inside to inside.
> Ceramic ringed guides are measured to the outside
> to outside of the ring, or the inside to inside of
> the frame.
>
> There is no absolute rule that your butt guide be
> 1/2 the diameter of the spool diameter. It is a
> general rule of thumb and a couple or three mm
> difference one way or the other isn't going to
> make any difference.
>
> ..................

Thank you Tom, I didn't know about the metal rings being that way. I'm glad I went home and put my nose right back to it. I had to get the exact science that it is not out, of my head. When I returned back from a nice leisurely successful test cast, I was understanding much better.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2022 06:40AM by Fred Zimmermann.

Jim Ising Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If Norm says buy a 30, buy a 30. If Norm says buy
> a zebra, buy a zebra.


If Norm tells me to buy a zebra, I'm gonna want to know why he wants me to buy a zebra, Jim.

Peter Yawn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Also remember that the KR page on the Anglers
> resource will tell you what size the butt guide
> should be. As Herb said, it's more about height
> (angle) than ring size. Keep in mind that the KR
> concept is for braided line. It's probably not
> great for heavy mono or fluoro.


And that is what threw me. My measurements called for a 30mm butt guide, only that butt guide was 40 inches from the reel seat. so I measured the ID, it was 25mm. So I grabbed the 40mm and measured the ID of that, which was 30mm, Hmm. I used that, it hit in the right spot, and was not really happy with the final product which made me question everything. Norm made good points (thank you Norm) in ring height yesterday. I learned a lot.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2022 06:48AM by Fred Zimmermann.

Steve Chontos Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I get it Fred, if you are going to standardize
> anything, I feel like it should be the inside
> diameter. No matter what the ring material is,
> make the I.D. the same and let the O.D. vary.

EXACTLY! Everything else we seem to do or talk about is so precise, but i.d. ring size? Ehh, it's not important. Let me add that I don't think it was the builders who went this way, like a few of you have said, it's the manufactures that always standardize something in their own way. No big deal/



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/14/2022 07:47AM by Fred Zimmermann.

Mark Talmo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fred,
> Don’t feel rained on!!! I questioned the exact
> same thing when I first started building rods and
> I am certain others before me did as well. You are
> among the others who will undoubtedly continue to
> question guide ring sizes.
> In reality, the present system is really silly,
> not precise or an accurate description of what
> really matters, the ACTUAL ring size OPENING. It
> makes it difficult in choosing the proper guide
> size when utilizing different brands, ring
> material, or ringed or ringless guides within a
> guide train. This is the first I have heard of a
> guide manufacturer affording both the OD and ID of
> their guides = my hat is off the American Tackle
> for doing so!!! But that is additional work for
> them and simply putting a bandaid on a significant
> wound.
> When looking at the entire situation of guide
> sizes, in the final analysis the ONLY THING OF
> CONCERN is the ultimate size of the opening. Who
> cares if the frame opening is 20mm when the ID of
> the ring is actually 18mm??? The line passing
> through is confined by the ring, not the frame!!!
> It is my understanding that this all came about
> when ceramic inserts were first introduced and the
> manufacturers simply retained the old guide size
> even though it now had a (smaller ID) ring glued
> inside. It was an overlooked (possibly ignored)
> situation then and has become more erratic due to
> newer ceramics which can be thinner.
> With all the “hair-splitting” involved in rod
> building, I am surprised that the ACTUAL ID of
> guides has been accepted and allowed to be
> DIFFERENT that the STATED size. I doubt any of us
> would be willing to accept paying for a 20oz beer
> at the pub but only receiving 18 oz simply because
> it poured into a smaller glass!!! I suppose that
> expecting the guide manufacturers to assume a
> logical, representative, actual size of their
> guides would be like attempting to push sewage
> against the tide.

Mark, Thank you. Once I got everything out of my head, I just went with it and all is good. One reason I have been using the American Tackle guides, they list every measurement possible about every ring they sell. Plus, I like their rings.

I have never heard of spool dia. coming into play with any layout system other than 27X. Am I missing something? Ring size has always been measured by the outside of the insert ring .

Spool upsweep angle makes little to no difference because the line is pulled, not shot from the reel. If you want to use it as a reference for your lay-out that's fine. In the long run, it's the diameter of the reel spool and the size and type line that matter most.

..............