Hello all,

Im in the works of building a 7'6 (228cm) MH saltwater rod that will be paired with a 4000 size daiwa BG4000. For the guide placement I'm using the 27x method, so with a spool diameter of 5.73cm this puts the choker at about 154cm away from the reel spool. With the spool being 41cm above the rod butt, this only leaves about 33cm left on the tip section for running guides. On top of this the butt guide being a size 30 will be 62cm (about 24") from the reel spool.

Do these measurements seem right? Ill provide the rest of the reduction guide measurements below, but they just seem to be spaced pretty far apart. Not to mention that the reduction guide train takes up a lot of space on the blank.

Distance from spool
Butt guide (AmTak A-frame Sz 30)-62.3cm
2nd (AmTak A-frame Sz 20)-90.3cm
3rd (AmTak A-frame Sz 10)-122.6cm
Choker (AmTak Ringlock Fly Sz 8)-154cm

Any and all help is greatly appreciated!
Cheers,
Quinn

For an NGC 27x setup with your reel, you are barking up the right tree, but I think you need one more reduction guide in the train. I would try in A frames 30, 20, 12, 8 and then however many single foot 8s are required to get to the tip. I've always found with larger reels using every other guide size in the reduction train tends to give a progressive spacing that is pleasing to the eye and performs well in a static test.

All of these guide reduction systems are simply what they are, rod length, reaf grip length, etc are not important, you simply run the guides out there as they layout, no need to overthink it, or worry about how it looks to you.

The distance from the choke guide to the tip doesn't matter. It is the distance from the spool to the choke guide that matters. If the tip top ends up being the choke guide, that's okay. If the choke guide ends up being 4 inches from the tip, that's fine. If the choke guide ends up being 40 inches from the tips, that's also fine. Any distance beyond the choke guide is simply taken up with running guides, as many or as few as needed.

If you can sight through the butt guide to the choke guide see a bulls-eye, you've likely got it right. Of course, you can always put in another transition guide if you feel you need more guides in that space for good stress distribution.

.............

I don't think I have seen a guide type or size recommendation take into consideration either the type or diameter of line or the expected ambient temperatures the line will face.

Distance from spool
Butt guide (AmTak A-frame Sz 30)-62.3cm
2nd (AmTak A-frame Sz 20)-90.3cm
3rd (AmTak A-frame Sz 10)-122.6cm
Choker (AmTak Ringlock Fly Sz 8)-154cm

Something IS wrong with your spacing; a bit of simple maths gives spacing:
SZ30 to SZ20 is 28cm (90.3-62.3)
SZ20 to SZ10 is 32.3cm (122.6-90.3cm)
SZ10 to F8 is 31.4cm (154-122.6)

The spaces / gaps are getting larger as you get further away from the stripper guide, I'd say this is the result of using a table edge or piece of thread to line up the top edges of the guides?

Don't get too hung up on 27X being a rule; it's a suggestion from which you can work..

I'd change the layout to:

30 at 63cm
20 at 92cm
12 at 119cm
10 at 142cm
Then your #8 runners; the 154cm choke point will fall somewhere between the 10 and the 8.

Yes you "should" drop from the 12 to an 8 but the difference in height makes the angle very steep; it looks odd and the line tends to run into the blank at the #8 when you do this.

I wish this forum allowed easy, visible in-thread images as opposed to a link to a photo library, it would make it so much easier to visually show you what I mean. (maybe this might change in the future.....)
I tried to register for photos but no joy, Will try again so I post a little diagram of the above.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2022 01:53AM by Brandon McQueen.

The line path will tell you what size and height guides to use and where to space them. It's all too easy if you forget about pre-selecting your guides and trying to get the line path to conform to your guide train. Do it the other way around.

I got to look at many rods built to pre-selected guide trains and spacing this past weekend at the Expo. The line paths on all of them were horrible.

Go to page 3 of this article and follow the instructions. The line path will get you dialed in on sizes and placement. [www.rodbuilding.org]

...........



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2022 09:03AM by Tom Kirkman.

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The line path will tell you what size and height
> guides to use and where to space them. It's all
> too easy if you forget about pre-selecting your
> guides and trying to get the line path to conform
> to your guide train. Do it the other way around.
>
> I got to look at many rods built to pre-selected
> guide trains and spacing this past weekend at the
> Expo. The line paths on all of them were
> horrible.
>
> Go to page 3 of this article and follow the
> instructions. The line path will get you dialed in
> on sizes and placement.
> [www.rodbuilding.org]

This article is the ground truth, stress reliever to set up proper functioning reduction trains and guide sets. I use it on every surf rod over 8' - that does not get microwaves but works on every length rod. If this link is not illegal, here it is in practice. Lou glosses over the arithmetic that the article explains but demonstrates accurately how to layout the whole guide system. [www.youtube.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2022 09:36AM by George Mason.

I agree with Brandon, your spacing is weird because the spacing gets further away as you move out from the butt guide. His spacing suggestion looks very good. I also agree with him about not getting hung up on the 27X choke guide placement, it is merely a suggestion which can certainly be moved in or out to accommodate spacing. I certainly hope Brandon will be able to post his diagram. I have found his diagrams to be extremely helpful.
Norm

George Mason Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tom Kirkman Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The line path will tell you what size and
> height
> > guides to use and where to space them. It's all
> > too easy if you forget about pre-selecting your
> > guides and trying to get the line path to
> conform
> > to your guide train. Do it the other way around.
>
> >
> > I got to look at many rods built to
> pre-selected
> > guide trains and spacing this past weekend at
> the
> > Expo. The line paths on all of them were
> > horrible.
> >
> > Go to page 3 of this article and follow the
> > instructions. The line path will get you dialed
> in
> > on sizes and placement.
> >
> [www.rodbuilding.org]
> f
>
> This article is the ground truth, stress reliever
> to set up proper functioning reduction trains and
> guide sets. I use it on every surf rod over 8' -
> that does not get microwaves but works on every
> length rod. If this link is not illegal, here it
> is in practice. Lou glosses over the arithmetic
> that the article explains but demonstrates
> accurately how to layout the whole guide system.
> [www.youtube.com]


He does a good job of explaining the 27X method. The beauty of the 27X is that it works great with all types of lines and in all types of conditions. It is surely a one-size-fits-all and it fits them all pretty well. The only time I get away from it is if know for sure that a guy is ONLY going to be using one type of line and in maybe one type of condition. Then I think you can use a system that is especially designed for that type line and condition. Most of my customers may switch up a bit now and then so I use the 27X for them. It just works for everything.

Once again the most important aspect of an ideal guide train setup when it comes to spinning that you need to know before making suggestions is the line choice . It's not mentioned by anyone here . If the OP is spooling with heavy mono then the above recommendations are good ones but if he's using braid up to 30 pounds the above recommendations are far from ideal .


All my MH saltwater inshore spinning rods up to 8 feet have either a 20 or 25 high frame guide to a size 10H instead of a 12 into a KB 6 or 5 with size 5 runners and I use braid up to 20 pounds on them which works incredibly well for all inshore fish species . I don't even go with a 30 ,20,12 ,10 or 8 on my heaviest surf rods and I surf fish with a reel that has a spool diameter of 76" . You can drop those sizes down significantly if using braided line under 30 pound but if you plan on spooling up with 50 pound braid or mono over 20 pounds the above guide sizes are an excellent choice.

The already provided above recommendations are also very good if the OP wishes to build a rod for a variety of spinning reels and many different line types (Something he did not make known) because the above sizes will work very well in allowing him to do that. The OP only mentioned the reel model , spool diameter , rod length and the rods power rating but there is no mention of the fish species he's targeting , terminal tackle information like leader / knot preferences which is needed for the best recommendations about running guide sizes and most importantly of all, his main line type , size and preference .

I presume the ideal distance between guides in this discussion is based upon the rod's casting performance rather than the rod's appearance? If so, why not temporarily tape the guides in different positions, test cast for distance and accuracy, identify the best results and go with them? I suspect the best guide placement for rod blank "A" may not be the same as the best guide placement for rod blank "B" and your results will apply to the type and diameter of the line you test-cast and may not be valid for a different type or diameter of line.

If Quinn , the OP mentioned the line he planned on spooling up with whether it be mono or braid and the pound strength (Which would give a very good indication of what the diameter range the line would be in) it would make choosing the best possible guide types and ring sizes much more tailored to his specific setup but in the event the line type and strength is not known then the recommendations already provided are pretty much foolproof because they will work well regardless of line sizes and type chosen.

I don't comment on specific spacing or the heights of individual guides (Although it's critical to figure that out to achieve the best possible performing setup ) but I need to see the blank after the reel is attached to it and do some measurements and tinkering to know the ideal guide heights and spacings.

You don't need to brainstorm to know what the ideal ring sizes should be because the reel specifics and especially the line choice and size will instantly provide that info . Choosing the ring sizes is the easiest part but to achieve the perfect transitional guide spacing and ideal guide heights you should be further along in the build including having the reel attached to the rod with the line of choice already spooled . Running guide placement is best done with the static test but running guide ring sizes including the choker should be chosen by line type and diameter .

I need to remember that the way I do things which is always matching a specific reel with a specific rod and line type as precisely as possible is not the way some others do things as many prefer to just go with the tried and true guide sizes which have proven to work very well regardless of reel size , line sizes and rod specifics . Both ways get the job done .

Anything that works well with mono is going to work well with braid. But a rod set up specifically for braid will not necessarily work well with mono.

The 27X system works very, very well with all types and sizes of lines. It was purpose developed to accommodate all of them.

If you know that you are going to be using a specific type and size line you can best 27X by a tad with a system expressly designed for that type line. Just be sure you don't plan to switch up line types and sizes by much.

.............

Really appreciate all the replies back, and it definitely sets me up to tweak the guide train to fit. It does give me some assurance that some agree the measurements do seem about right.

The issue with the guide spacing getting further apart is a product of the way I space and size the reduction guides. I use a similar method to Brandon, where I graph a line from the spool center to the choker guide, and then try to put a guide with a height somewhere in the range of 20" as the butt guide, then take the space left between the butt and choker and divide it by three, the two measurements left I try to find a guide with a similar height (using the slope of the line graphed) and then place it there. It's a very rigid method but does help me known which guides I need to order prior without buying every single guide size.

As for a bit more background information, this setup will be using 30lb braid and is a workhorse rod for fishing striped bass and bluefish around Cape Ann, casting essentially all artificial lures under the sun. Size 8 runners are necessary because my Uncle likes to reel the snaplock into the reel for quick cleaning. While I have used the high frame spinning guides for other rods I do enjoy the more traditional look of A-frames occasionally and I don't mind having larger guides compared to the KL-H and AmTak equivalent to those.

I think my next step will be to wrap the guides up quickly with the reduction I originally had, and then see if I can move them around a bit to look more progressive (not so far apart, distances getting smaller), and also try with an additional reduction guide as some people had mentioned.

Before wrapping, just tape them up as accurately as you can and go cast it a bit. You might even try a different butt guide position, adjust the other guides and go cast again. I wouldn't wrap anything until I was happy with the results.

.............