I am building a Rainshadow REVS72UL-2SB blank (7'2" 2 piece ultralight) mostly for trout. I'm going to use a CF TN handle and have a Lew's Mach 2 spinning reel sized 100 I am going to pair with it. I'm looking at Pac Bay guides, and from my understanding the going recommendation is to use the high frame M guides for the reduction train then F fly guides for the running guides. Would going with 20-16-12-8 M guides for reduction be correct? Or would it be right to start with a 16 for the first reduction guide. For the running guides I'm thinking size 6 f guides from the choker to the tip? I'm not exactly sure which is why I'm asking. If I'm wrong please feel free to tell me how wrong I am. Any advice is readily accepted.

The only way to get it "correct" would be to set it up and size and position the guides per the line path. I don't think you can pre-select guides and expect to have a nice, straight line path. You have to come at it from the other direction.

I know many do not want to buy guides they feel they won't end up using, but sometimes the price to have the best possible rod is to buy those additional guides so you can get the set-up perfect. Toss the ones you don't use in a box and use them on your next project, or to perhaps build a set-up set of guides for doing this sort of thing in the future.

I will add this, you do not need 4 different sized guides, and then some fly guides to do this. Your third guide can likely be your choke guide, which makes it your first small, low frame single foot fly type guide. An UL rod even with mono of 4 to 6 lb test can be choked down pretty quickly.

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Have you tried using the KR guide system on the Angler Resouce/ Fuji site to the left top? The Pac Bay guide heights are very similar. There is no need for such large runners on an ultralight, but to each their own.

Must have missed that, size 6F runners are big for ultralight? Didn't realize that. I guess I should build my handle then figure out guides after I get my reel attached.

Let's not say they are too big, but they could be smaller... 4's would be an asset on such a light power rod. You will notice the difference in rod speed. It's possible to go even smaller if you're up to it. But 4's would be a nice compromise if you're adverse to wrapping extremely small guides.

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No, do use the reduction train you listed. Instead do a KR-like concept using 16M, 8M, and 5M for the reduction train, followed by either size 4F or 5F running guides, I would use the 4F runners. This will be a much lighter guide train that will cast and perform great. For you particular rod and reel I would use nine to ten guides total. The butt guide (stripper guide) will be placed about 19” to 20” in front of the reel spool, and the choke guide (first running guide) will be placed about 23”-24” in front of the stripper. The other two reduction guides will be place progressively between the stripper and choke guides and the remaining running guides placed progressively between the choke guide and the tip top. The runner closest to the tip top will be about 9-10 cm (3.5”- 4”) away from the tip. Once the guides are tentatively laid out do a two line static test to fine tune the layout. Then take it out and test cast to insure it casts easy, smooth and far. Use the KR GPS from Anglers Resource to get a good starting point.
[anglersresource.net]
Norm

Thanks for the advice, so I don't have to set up my handle/reel seat before ordering guides?

You could go even smaller with the reduction train if you are using mono 4 lb or less or braided line. Could use KLH or PacBay M 12, 6, and then directly to your size 4 runners (F guides). Sometimes we talk too much about weight, but on an ultralight guide train weight makes a huge difference in performance.

I have also used a smaller reduction train that worked surprisingly very well. It consisted of a 12M, 6M, and 4L M, followed by 4F runners. I still prefer the 16M based reduction train on the longer UL Rods, but that’s just my opinion.
Norm

Don't be afraid to go small on the running guides , typically surf fisherman use anywhere from size 8 up to size 12 mm runners but after very extensive testing I have gravitated to size 5 mm runners and have used that size not only on my smaller inshore rods but 11 foot surf rods as well . What a major performance difference , I love them .

I don't use heavy lines and thick leaders and I never wind hardware through the tip top that's why I can get away with it . I would also opt for size 4 runners as others have suggested above on your build.

I find that using ?ight braid or mono I don,t need reduction guides just a tall enough butt guide to prevent line slap then runners..you may be surprised by the stronger hook set too.like Peter says, a light guide train is a big plus for an ultrA light..



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2022 07:09PM by ben belote.

Hunter,
Personally, I would use a Fuji KR Concept guide train of KL16H, KL8H, KL5.5M followed by KB / KT 5s out to a size 5 LG tip top. But if you want to use the Minima M guides (16, 8, 5), they are very good as well and I have used them in KR type layouts which performed nicely. Whichever way you go, I strongly suggest using a CERAMIC tip top like a Fuji LGAT. Especially with an UL, most will use size 4 runners; afterall, they are a tic lighter. I accept the compromise of the minimal extra weight in favor of the 5s being easier to wrap when building the rod and easier to thread the line through them when using the rod, but that is just my personal preference.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Your line path should travel straight from the spindle on spool to the choke guide. The guides as you look through them should form a bull’s-eye. It is very hard to do that if you pre-select your guides. You need the flexibility that comes from having enough different sizes on hand to move things around and switch to a higher or lower or smaller or larger guide as the need arises To obtain the perfectly straight line path.

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I have never experienced any difficulty achieving a bull’s eye reduction train and which automatically affords and corresponds to the proper, progressive spacing that lends itself to and melds with the runners. The designers and engineers at Fuji and Pac Bay did a great job designing their KL-H and M guides with the proper height so I do not have to concern myself about it. Bull’s eye the reduction guides, 2-line static load test the runners in particular but the reduction guides as well = done!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Hunter, the reel seat setup won't affect the guide sizes you need. X2 on size 4 runners. I got a feeling you're really gonna like this rod.

Mark Talmo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have never experienced any difficulty achieving
> a bull’s eye reduction train and which
> automatically affords and corresponds to the
> proper, progressive spacing that lends itself to
> and melds with the runners. The designers and
> engineers at Fuji and Pac Bay did a great job
> designing their KL-H and M guides with the proper
> height so I do not have to concern myself about
> it. Bull’s eye the reduction guides, 2-line
> static load test the runners in particular but the
> reduction guides as well = done!

Mark,

No you won't have any problem provided you have a large enough range of those guides in order to obtain that line path. But if you don't have a full set, you're very likely to find that the pre-selected guides won't give you that "bull's eye" and proper static spacing at the same time. I know a lot of rod builders and see a lot of rods, and most of the time guys aren't getting what they could if only they had an additional guide size or two to play with during their set-up process. It is rare that any pre-selected guide set will deliver the optimum line path and proper stress distribution at the same time. You may be able to get that "bull's eye" but the spacing will be horrible. Or you may be able to get good spacing, but the "bull's eye" is not obtainable.



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The recommended size groupings for the Fuji KR reduction guides will almost bulls eye themselves. Very easy to do. You Don’t need a large number of variously sized guides. Never had problems getting a straight line bullseye from the reel spool through the stripper to the choke guide. It is one of many reasons that makes the KR concept so good. With a small 1000 size reel using light line, the Minima 16M, 8M, 5M reduction train will work extremely well, and adding an extra running guide or two, over what is recommended, will help give progressive spacing and a great looking static test. The Minima Match guides are very similar in height to the Fuji KR guides, so they will work well in a KR concept. Don’t be afraid to move the choke and/or stripper guides in or out a little to get the spacing you like. Hard to screw up, a lot of flexibility in setting up a well performing guide train. As I previous mentioned before before, use the KR GPS to get a very good starting point, most of the work has already been done for you. Believe me it works GREAT! For me, an easy way to bullseye your guides is once you have them temporarily fixed in place, run the line from the reel through all the guides and tie on a light weight and let it hang from the tip top. You can now press he line to bottom of the reel spool, and what you should see is a straight line from bottom of the spool to the choke guide and another straight line from the choke guide to the tip top, with the line touching the bottom of each guide. Very easy to do and almost fool proof.
Here is an article of the KR size groups. [anglersresource.net]
If you have questions please feel free to ask them, we will be more than happy to help.
Norm

You don't need a large number, but you typically need about two more than you'll end up using if you want to get it perfect.

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The various individual KR groupings come pretty close to getting it perfect. You don’t need or want to change guide sizes within a particular reduction guide group. However, you do use different reduction guide groups depending on the reel size and line type/size you use. For what Hunter wants to do the 16M (or 16H) based reduction guide group will work great. After all, it’s an UL rod using an ultra light reel with ultralight line. If he was making a heavier rod which would be used with multiple reel sizes and line sizes, then which of the various reduction group size to use comes more into play.

Norm

Would Fuji SiC guides for reduction then alconites for runners be okay? I'd use SiC runners but that is a bit on the expensive side for me.