Phil? What you just outlined is exactly what Mark did. Did you not read any of this thread?

Mark, as for how happy you are with the performance of the rod, awesome !!! I bet you were smiling ear to ear. Tell me ..... when you made those first couple of casts, did an audible "get ya some" escape your lips? lol

As far as your results. I'm actually surprised you had the kind of differences you did. A little more than an 8% difference from straight to 45 degree misaligned is pretty substantial. Imagine if you had used a lighter weight? You're probably talking better than a 10% difference.


And as far as Norman's Super Bowl predictions ..... I'm hoping it's Bengals.

The only issue I see is that even the worst rod builder on the planet is not likely to have his guides mis-aligned by 10 degrees. More like 2 or 3 at the most. If you do a real world type test with guides off by those 2 or 3 degree margins I do not believe there would be any difference.

Thanks for the post-test replies; hopefully more to come.
Steven,
You are welcome; it was a nasty job but someone had to do it lol!!! I could not resist ribbing people in other parts of the country by including the 85* weather presently here in LA LA Land within the test results. Admittedly, it is unseasonal even for us = 20* cooler in a few days. But the nighttime temps are still PLUMMETING into the 40* lol.
David,
Thanks for attempting to awaken Phil. As stated in my preliminary prediction, as probably the general consensus of most, I anticipated a quite noticeable reduction in casting distance depending on the severity of the guide misalignment. At the same time though, I was hoping the test would reveal virtually no difference simply for the Wow-Factor. But the test revealed a logical, if not an expected result. As you, I am convinced a lighter weight would have provided a more profound difference, both in overall (less) distance and (greater) between the three test sessions. But I am glad I chose the heavier weight; I’m already embarrassed with sub 100ft casting distances lol.
Mike,
In addition to the planned 3 session test as above, I thought of possibly adding another with just one guide slightly off, similar to your suggestion. But I was melting in the 85* sun (more ribbing of the SoCal weather) and I had a beer waiting for me at home lol. Concluding from the other tests, it is safe to say the difference would have been undetectable.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

"In addition to the planned 3 session test as above, I thought of possibly adding another with just one guide slightly off, similar to your suggestion. But I was melting in the 85* sun (more ribbing of the SoCal weather) and I had a beer waiting for me at home lol. Concluding from the other tests, it is safe to say the difference would have been undetectable." Certainly wouild be with the line you used. You've already proven that it would be very little if any difference.

Just do the 10 degree over with 15 pound FC.

Nice job, Mark.

I cannot claim to have seen every custom rod ever built but of the hundreds I have seen I do not think I have ever seen one where any of the guides were off alignment by as much as 10 degrees. I would think anyone that cannot get them closer than that is in the wrong hobby. In fact some factory rods are pretty bad but even then I do not think I have seen any of them with guides off by 10 degrees.

Mike, it was an experiment to provide information on how important alignment is. It did a nice job in proving, for the parameters of the test, that alignment is not that important. By taking it to unreasonable extremes it proved that reasonable errors are insignificant. Nice job, Mark.

you should be able to do line up dots some how?

Mark...thats a great test. In God we trust...all other bring data.
I would love to see what the results would be if you had just done a spiral or "Roberts" wrap with the guides ending on top.

OK, I thought we already knew this. Maybe some did not.

I don't see any predictions from you earlier in the thread, MB. Maybe not confident enough of what you already knew to predict?

Chris, the result for the configuration you describe would still be a minor effect, if any. The conclusion is that for the test parameters used (casting weight, line, rod, etc, mostly the line) alignment doesn't affect casting distance very much if any. It is as Tom precicted early on. However, I still submit that the results would be different with a significantly stiffer line, like 15 FC.

Did not see the point of such a test and therefore felt no need to predict anything. If you build rods long enough you learn these things as you go along. Maybe it is good for some of the newer builders but even they probably would not build a rod with guides badly out of alignment by 10 degrees.

Mike,
With all due respect from one of the “newer builders” to a such veteran as you, you keep bringing-up the 10* which may be the reason you see no point of the test in the first place. Obviously no one, whether a newer builder or veteran, would build a rod with guides misaligned by 10*. The 10*, not to mention the even more profound 45*, were simply chosen as extremes to demonstrate the effect of misaligned guides as boldly as possible = even though grossly misaligned, the casting distance was not reduced by as much as anticipated. The test proved to simply afford DATA to support previous BELIEFS, SUSPICTIONS OR GUESSES, even for seasoned veterans such as you.
I did not design and fabricate my RG Tele rod to enable me to perform the test; quite the contrary. After building the RG Tele, I realized it could be employed to perform the misaligned guide test more accurately, easier and with fewer variables than any other previous method. So, simply because I could, I took the time to conduct the test and provide the results to everyone, newer builders and veterans alike.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Different lines: nylon, fluorocarbon, braid - are certain react differently to substantial changes in ambient temperature. More research has to be done on this topic to include spin-casters who cast in different latitudes with different average temperatures and during different seasons.

"The casting distanced was not reduced by as much as anticipated" Anticipated by who? "The test proved to simply afford DATA to support previous BELIEFS, SUSPICTIONS OR GUESSES, even for seasoned veterans such as you." I wasn't guessing or believing. I knew. Somebody, maybe TomK brought up the point that even if you move guides out of alignment the diameter of the ring opening is so large that you would have to move the guide by a large number of degrees before the line would touch or be moved out of alignment by the opposite side of the ring. I think the take away here is that having guides out of alignment does not necessarily take the line out of alignment. The line can still travel in a straight path even with out of alignment guides. I'm not knocking anybody including yourself doing such a test but I would hope that good rod builders could look at the issue and think through it to the point that the outcome was not in doubt. I will give you props for at least going out and trying something.

BTW I'm not suggesting that anybody build rods with out of alignment guides or not be careful and try to align them as best they can.

There will be those such as Mike Ballard who will not benefit from a test like this one because they “I knew”. And then there will be others who demand hard data facts and figures such as Phil Ewaniki. The vast majority of commoners fall between the extremes. Hopefully the test was beneficial to some.
Phil,
Thank you for offering to expand my test to include different line types used at different temperatures. We are all anxious to learn of your test results.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Mark, how many guides on the rod at what size for each guide..were they ceramic..how lonng is the rod, is it graphite or glass..i,m sure you listed this info but i can,t find it..thanks

Ben,
I am very curious to learn the nitty-gritty of questions. Vintage 1960s FG Conolon blank, 6ft, UL, fast action (extremely fast after telescoping), 4-piece, 12in Tennessee handle, Fuji KL16-H, 8-H, 5.5M, 5X KB5 runners, KB5 used as tip top (8 guides + 1 tip, all Alconite rings). Lew’s Speed Spin LSG 100 spooled with 4lb P-line Floroclear, .4oz casting bubble as weight.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Thanks Mark..

There are oodles of variables in rod-building, and every difference makes a difference. We don't have to guess or imagine about these differences. We can measure and report them - but sometimes it's more fun to imagine them. That's when advertisers and their dream world appear: where rods have "soulful actions" and are "stronger" or "smoother" or "powerful" or "accurate" or "sensitive" - terms which ignore measurement or even a definition. Golf clubs and tennis rackets are especially built and advertised for users of different abilities. Why not fish rods, especially fly rods?