While my “removable guide, telescopic rod” (RG Tele) may not be a milestone in rod building history or a trend-setting design, it accomplished its goal of producing a multi-piece pack rod which protected the fragile tip sections within the butt section while still affording PROPER guide placement as per 2-line static load testing for optimum performance; protection AND performance in one rod. Although that may be considered ho-hum to some, after completing the project, I realized the RG Tele could be employed as the first method to accurately measure the difference in casting distance of MIS- aligned guides! With the same reel and line mounted in the precisely same location on precisely the same rod, with the precisely same guides in their precisely same linear location, with precisely the same weight affixed to the line precisely 6in from the tip top, the fairest test possible could be conducted by eliminating ANY variable of the test fixture (rod, reel, line, guides, spacing, lure weight). The ONLY variable remaining would be the “propulsion unit” = me. To counter any accuracy criticism from those (few) insistent on hard-data NUMBERS, each test-casting session will entail casting an empty egg bubble (so it is easily seen in the grass of the park) 6 times in opposite directions to account for any wind. The shortest and longest distances will be eliminated with the remaining 8 (4 in each direction) to be averaged to produce the final “score”. The first cast session will be conducted with the guides aligned = straight. The second session with the guides 10* off vertical (20* included angle). The third session with the guides 45* off vertical (90* included angle).

I plan on going to the nearby park tomorrow, Saturday, to conduct the test = the test HAS NOT BEEN PERFORMED YET! Let’s have some fun!!! = None of us really KNOW what to expect, only SUSPECT the outcome. Please reply to this post with YOUR PREDICTIONS!!! If you are correct, then you already knew that; if not, who cares but you learned something. I suspect most will think misaligned guides will impose a big impact on casting distance, obviously the more misaligned the more drastic. I tend to believe so as well but eager to learn it may actually amount to diddly-squat.
Again, let’s have some fun. If I do not receive a reasonable amount of replies, I may just take my ball (results) and go home lol.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Allow me to add and verify that the tip top and butt guides will remain vertical with the others staggered at their specified angles.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

I predict that there will be a minor deterioratiion in distance. Less than 5 %. I expect the margin for error will be about that also. Maybe a bit more than 5% for the 45 degree off vertical.

I don't understand the "included angle."

Michael,
Thanks for the reply; I can always count on you. The “included angle” is the total of both the “-” and “+” degrees from vertical; example, -10* from vertical to +10* from vertical = 20 included* total.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Maybe I missed it but, what line and reel will be used? I should have asked before predicting as I think it could have a major effect on the results. Certainly the line.

I'm still not sure I understand the alignment, first guide at 10 degrees, second at 350, what about the rest of the guides? Please define each guide's position.

I respectfully submit that the testing would be more "representative" and valuable if the angles were less severe, more in line with what might happen. But it's your test, and maybe I'm wrong.

The angle of the tip-top to the horizontal influences the direction of the cast. Other guides will influence the distance of the cast - but not the direction of the cast. You can't push on a rope - or a fishline.

Because the guide ring openings are so much larger than the line diameter, slight deviations from straight make virtually no difference in casting distance. You’ll have to move the guides quite far off-line in order to see any difference in casting distance.

...........

We are not talking slight deviations if I'm interpreting this correctly. It appears that the testing will include "guides quite far off-line. . . " I predict that the answer will be much different between using a 15 pound test premium braid and a 15 pound test typical FC.

It’s really not a real world situation, even the worst rod builder in the world would never wrap a rod with the guides that far out of alignment. So I’m not that sure what the experiment would prove, except that a rod will still cast even if the guides are misaligned. However, I see nothing wrong with experimenting to ease your curiosity.
Norm

In one of Rich Forhan's early articles he talked about trying to convince bass fishermen that the revolver spiral wrap would not affect casting distance. Most did not believe him so he built a rod that revolved or spiraled the line a complete 360 degrees around the rod and took it out and let people cast it. Supposedly none could find any real difference in casting distance over the rod with all the guides in line.

Mike,
If one things about lines and casting - realizing that lines being cast are almost slack lines and as such - even wildly badly spaced and aligned guides may have very little effect on casting distance.

i.e. if one is using a 1 oz casting plug, the plug is going to be doing a pretty good job in pulling line off the reel - no matter any guide related drag effects.

Take care

Well , we will see. I don't remember seeing teh casting weight, but knowing Mark's preferences for rods, it most likely will be much less than that. Slack 15 pound test FC and slack 15 pound braid have proven to me to be very different animals even with perfectly aligned spin guides. Spin and cast are two different animals, too. While 50 pound braid works very well on a casting outfit, it doesn't do very well on spin. Keep going, Mark. This will be interesting.

So far we have two votes for alignment not making a significant difference and one still wondering what the test parameters are (line type, pound test, reel specs, weight to be cast).

Thanks for the replies although I was hoping for more requested predictions, just for fun. What’s to be scared of?
I am glad I looked at the replies before going to the park for the test. Michael posed a good question; the spinning reel will be a Lew’s Laser Speed Spin LSG100 (quite new) spooled with 4lb P-Line Floroclear (mono/fluorocarbon hybrid) and a 2.5in teardrop casting bubble which weighs <.5oz. The 4lb Floroclear should be limp enough to “resemble” the properties of braid; the lightest braid I have is 10lb PowerPro.
Maybe Michael is not the only one confused with my description of guide placement for the test. Let me attempt to clarify by using clock positions to describe. Again, the tip top and butt guide will remain vertical (obviously hanging down) throughout the test sessions = 6:00. Test #1, all guides will be at 6:00. Test #2, the guides will be staggered from vertical = the first guide below the tip top will be positioned 10* to the left of vertical (7:00), the next guide 10* to the right (5:00), the next guide 10* to the left (7:00) and so on.
Norman also makes a good point “It’s really not a real world situation, even the worst rod builder in the world would never wrap a rod with the guides that far out of alignment.” This is more of an exercise in realizing the effects of misaligned guides; it may be minimal or may be profound = the test will reveal. I may add to the test depending how things go; maybe barely staggered or just one guide misaligned or ??
Well, off to the park to see if the squirrels attack my casting bubble. News at 11:00.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Count me in the Norman Miller camp. But, if it's a just to see because I can, kind of thing. I'll make a prediction. My prediction is that with 4# line, and a 1/2 oz weight, gravity is going to have a greater affect than any drag created by the guides being misaligned.

I don't mean that as a smart aleck remark. I just mean that 4# line, even a line with a little more stiffness than a regular co polymer line would have, isn't going to cause a lot of drag when it's being towed behind a weight moving at the speed that 1/2 oz weight will be moving.

I realize a lighter weight, one more in line with what is normally used on 4# line, would be much more difficult to see, but IMO, it would be more real world



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/12/2022 06:19PM by David Baylor.

David,
Thanks for your insightful reply. Joining the “Norman Miller camp” is ALWAYS a safe bet; I wonder what his predictions of tomorrow’s Super Bowl is lol!!!!
Your observation of the amount of weight used for the test being heavier than what would be normally used with 4lb line is correct and I will certainly not disagree. The .4oz casting bubble was chosen to minimize wind influence and simply to make it easier to see in the grass. I was probably approaching overloading the tip section of the UL blank as well. Nonetheless, all the test sessions were conducted with the same set-up.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

The squirrels ignored my casting bubble and I was able to conduct and conclude my “Casting Distance of Misaligned Guides” test. However, since so few of you accepted and replied to my request for predictions of the outcome, I am not telling anyone!!!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Thanks for the line description-makes all the difference. With that info I predict there will be little significant difference in casting distance.

JUST KIDDING!!!!!!!!!
But before I reveal the outcome of the “Casting Distance of Misaligned Guides” (CDMG) test, allow me to bore you with how my new “Removable Guide Telescopic Rod” (RG Tele) performed. At the risk of sounding boastful, it performed flawlessly; none of the guides shifted from their seated positions and the 4-piece telescopic blank never loosened or moved. Granted < 50 casts were made within the 2 hours of testing but I am pleased, proud and relieved with the RG Tele’s debut, even if no water was involved. It also, inadvertently, provided the perfect, ultimate test fixture for the CDMG test which was impossible to conduct precisely. While many had their premonitions, ideas, beliefs, feelings or guesses, now we all KNOW.
For those obsessed with infinite data details, I can only supply the following. The CDMG test was conducted at ~85*F, sporadic <10 MPH easterly winds consistent throughout the test, casting direction was E to W and W to E and no squirrels present to abscond with the casting bubble. Each of the 3 test sessions (1 = guides aligned, 2 = guides staggered ~10* off vertical, 3 = guides staggered ~45* off vertical) involved 6 casts in each direction with the highest and lowest distances (in feet) eliminated and the remaining 4 averaged with the E and W values averaged again for the final “score” = average number of feet casted for each session. Please view the linked photos to actually see how far the guides were misaligned.
TA DA, THE RESULTS!!!
Test 1. (guides aligned) = 93.5 ft
Test 2. (guides off 10*) = 89.25 ft
Test 3. (guides off 45*) = 86.75 ft
While I would have guessed guides grossly misaligned as in #3 would have had a much larger impact (reduction) on the casting distance, the results are the results and now I know, even if only less than 7 ft; we all know the fish are always 5 ft further than we can cast lol.
In conclusion, keep aligning your guides, if only for the visual impact.
[www.rodbuilding.org]
[www.rodbuilding.org]
[www.rodbuilding.org]

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

The line comes off a spin reel spool in loops, which become smaller as they pass through the guide train and slap against the guides. It may well be that arranging guides in a perfectly straight line is not the best arrangement for optimum casting distance - that offset guides minimize line friction caused by certain types of line. Of course this line-slap friction on the guides is probably different for different brands and different diameters of line and the flexibility of monofilament line changes with the ambient temperature - which would necessitate a different guide placement and sizes for optimum casting distance. The only sure way to find out which guide placement is best is to tape the guides in one configuration, cast many times (measuring the distance cast each time) then tape the guides in another configuration and cast many times, measuring the distance. Lots of work, but the only alternative is simply to believe, not know, which guide arrangement actually casts farther.

Mark, Thanks for taking the time to perform this test. It makes me feel better about some of my builds. LOL...Could you send some of that weather to the midwest please?