How much flame can a typical ultra light blank take before it gets damaged?

The reason I am asking is because on the 5 rods I've built i decided to epoxy the tip top on instead of using the tip top glue stick method because I'm concerned I wont get the tip straight and that heating the glue back up to take it off to re-do with an alcohol burner will damage the blank.

Can you actually touch the flame to the blank and not damage it? It's hard to tell how far people are holding their burners from the blank in the youtube videos I've seen.

Also, when applying heat to a finish to dissipate the bubbles I've been very cautious about getting the flame to close and feel like I've got an unacceptable amount of micro bubbles in the dried product, but dont want to flame any more for fear of damaging something. When I flame the finish I dont ever put the flame directly to the finish. I hold it off to the side.

I would say there is no reason to touch the blank with the flame. You can do everything you need to do without risking damage or soot on the blank.

Epoxy for tiptops has the disadvantage of being very difficult to remove later if necessary. It is a highly risky process compared to hot melt.

With hot melt all you have to do is put some slivers into the tube of the tiptop and then heat it slightly with the side of the flame. It takes little heat and there is no risk to the blank either putting it on or taking it off. I often do it without tools or gloves. It is easy and risk-free to remove it and it may be repositioned bery easily.

Some builders have an epoxy that can be removed more easily than the typical epoxy adhesive, but I'm not familiar with it. I'm sure someone will mention it. I still prefer hot melt to any epoxy.

Use good practices in mixing your wrap epoxy to minimize bubbles and mimimal heat. You can break bubbles by gently blowing through a straw onto the finish and also by using gentle heat and flow from a heat gun, although the latter does tend to pick up any dust in the area.

You are playing with fire.

Flex Coat Company
Professional Rod Building Supplies
www.flexcoat.com

Two ways you can remove an epoxied tip, both methods take extra time and extreme care.

1) Take a small file and lightly file the tip sleeve until you just see epoxy or rod finish, repeat process 180 degrees. Then gently peel off the sleeve.

2) Take a Dremel with a cut off wheel and lightly score a line on the sleeve parallel to the blank until you just see epoxy or rod finish, repeat process 180 degrees. Then gently peel off the sleeve.

Method 2 takes the most care because the cut off wheel cuts fast and can generate heat.

I am comfortable with method 2 and have used it successfully many times.

If you plan to remove or replace a lot of tips use the hot melt, if replacing tips is an occasional thing go with the epoxy.

Past posts leans to hot melt as the preferred adhesive.

Have fun

John

For bubbles in the wraps, put the flame directly under the wrap without it actually touching the blank. Remember to keep the blank turning while doing this and even moving the flame from side to side and only for an instant.
On the tip top; gently heat just the tip frame (not the blank) and remove with some needle nose pliers. Epoxied tips can be removed this way without damaging the blank, MOST OF THE TIME. Otherwise you are going to have to do John D's method. My advice is to learn a technique that will use the Stick hot melt glue.

I don't epoxy tips, but I have had to remove tips that were epoxied. I install a papper clip in the guide ring, a heat sink to seperate the rest of the system, to that paper clip is installed a faifly powerful rubber band, string is than tied to the rubber band and tension is applied, i than heat the tip top quickly so it doesn't have a lot of time to transfer to the blank, the tip pops off as soon,as the glue releases.

I submit that the Spencer method will not reliably work on tiptops that were epoxied on. Epoxy does not melt so it doesn't "release." If that method worked then I expect the tiptops were applied with hot melt and not epoxy. Heat only deteriorates it so it might come off. The problem is that the temperature it takes to deteriorate epoxy is about the same temperature that deteriorates the blanks. It is very risky. The method stated is perfect for hot melt applied tiptops, but I've never had an epoxied tiptop "release" with reasonable heat.

The next time I get one I'll use one of the Martini mechanical methods.

Jason, as Michael said, take more care while mixing your epoxy. When mixing, don't let your stirring utensil leave the pool of epoxy. If you're like me, you tilt your mixing cup as you mix. If you let the stir stick leave the edge of the epoxy you're bring air into the mix when the stick reenters the pool. Mix slowly and thoroughly. If you're mixing your epoxy for at least 2 minutes, you'll have mixed it well enough without mixing to vigorously.

I'd also ask if you are pouring your epoxy from the mixing cup out on to a piece of tin foil, or into a little aluminum dish like Mud Hole sells. When you pour it out the epoxy spreads out into a thinner layer, so bubbles that may be in it, don't have as far to travel to get to the surface of the epoxy. Let the epoxy sit for a minute or more to give the small bubbles a chance to get to the surface. If you need to hit it with heat, I personally would only hit it with heat while it's in the dish or on the foil.

Also, if you are hitting your wraps with heat and you are seeing bubbles form. it's because there is a void somewhere under the surface of the finish. The heat is simply making the trapped air expand and rise to the surface. I'm curious as to where your bubbles are forming on your wraps? Based on my past experience, I would guess that they are along side of your guide feet?

If that is the case, and this is something I think you should do anyhow, you need to make sure the tunnels in the wrap that the guide foot causes, gets filled with epoxy before coating the entire wrap. I take a tooth pick and I drip epoxy on the top and sides of all the guide feet before I got back and start applying the rest of the finish. This gives the finish time to soak in and push any air that may be trapped, to the surface. When I first started wrapping I didn't think I had the time to do such things. I was afraid the epoxy was going to set up too quickly. But it really doesn't take that long, and will save you headaches down the road. At least it did for me.

any temperature of 200 degrees or more can damage the blank!

Jason,
The way I remove a tip-top.

Pre-heat a 40-60 watt soldering iron - not gun.
Loop a rubberband through the tip-top ring.
Attach the other end of the rubberband to a draw or cabinet pull. Or whatever pleases you.
Tension the rubberband to its full extent.
Touch the soldering iron to the tip-top tube.
It will be pulled off by the rubberband when the cement softens.
Herb
CTS

Great process for hot melt attached tiptops. Will not work on epoxy.

I suggest that anyone who wants to truly understand how an epoxied tiptop is attached buy a few cheap tiptops, they only cost about 2 bucks apiece, and epoxy them onto scrap blanks. Then try the methods being proposed to take them off and see how it works. Do the same with hot melt tip top cement. This experiment could at some time in the future save you an expensive blank.

John Cates...do you guys still offer the top glue that has been run through a glue gun and offers a perfect little string of adhesive to drop and trim into the top tube? Roger gave me a handful of them years ago and I couldn't believe someone had not thought of it before. It is the PERFECT way to get a tip glued on with absolute glue coverage throughout the tube. You guys should do a 1 minute video showing how simple it is.

Jason,
The solution is very simple:

If one is worried about flame on a blank - DON't USE FLAME on a BLANK.

No flame on a blank - no worry about flame on a blank.

If you need something heated in the rod building world, use a heat gun.

Note:
Any time one talks about heat - and the rod building world - USE HEAT SPARINGLY - no matter the source of the heat and you will be all right.

Caution:
Any time that one uses heat in the very thin tip section of some fishing rods - be very very very careful about avoiding excess heat. With a very thin carbon or glass member - it takes very little excess heat to destroy that member.

Take care

Jim

Yes and yes. We have the following video on youtube that we posted 10 years ago, wow has it been that long??? Check it out...

[www.youtube.com]

Also, Jim, I hope to see you at the show, buddy.

Flex Coat Company
Professional Rod Building Supplies
www.flexcoat.com

I'll be there.