I am teaching a class in rod building for Project Healing Waters. We are to the guide placement section and had a question on formulas for guide placement. The Hexrod site has two calculators to compute the spacing one is based on Dale Clemons book, the other on Wayne Cattanach's book. I have both books and can show them the Clemons formula. But for the life of me I can't find the formula in Wayne's fook. He mentions it in his section on guide spacing and cites the location of what he calls the "Ferrule Guide", and increasing the spacing by 9/16, but for the life of me I don't know what he uses to calculate the spacing and he never really cites it. Does he use the distance from the tip top to the ferrule guide and divide that distance by the number of guides he will use then increase each space by 9/16ths?
I am at a loss to actually explain Wayne's formula. The Hexrod calculator uses an "index guide" as a starting point. I assume that would be the same as Wayne's "ferrule guide" but updated for the new four piece rods.

So can anyone shed light on this? I just want to be able to explain the "formula" to my students when they ask.

Thanks.

I believe Wayne was a bamboo rod builder so you might search a bit on bamboo guide spacing just in case it might be archived somewhere under that sort of heading.

.........

Guide spacing calculators, formulas and charts can only give you a starting point, as they do not take blank characteristics into consideration. Each blank will have different characteristics that can affect the placement of the guides. For example, an X-Fast action blank will have the greatest curvature in the last 20% of the blank will requiring the guides to be concentrated towards the tip, whereas a Slow action blank will have the curvature extend fairly evenly along the entire blank, even into the handle in some cases, facilitating the placement of guides fairly equally along the entire length of the blank. The placement of the guide closest to the reel can also vary, depending on the size of the reel and the preference of the angler. For example, a fly angler's stripper guide is typically set at a distance the angler can comfortably reach with his off hand, enabling them to easily strip the line. In the other extreme, a surf angler's first guide can be up to 30" or 40" up the blank when using very large spinning reels. This placement can affect the number of guides used and the resultant guide spacing. There is also the reel type that affects the number of guides - casting rods require more guides to ensure the line does not touch the blank or extend below the blank when under load, whereas a spinning rod with the line alreadt under the rod does not have this limitation and can get by with fewer guides.

Once the first guide's location is determined, a deflection chart (available through Mudhole) can be used to identify the guide locations. When the locations are identified, tape the guides in place and conduct a static defelection test (two options, single line or two line test) to confirm the effeciency and effectiveness of the placement. If the static deflection test looks good, you can also conduct practice tests to validate the guide train.

Richard,
Congratulations on teaching a rod building class. While I am unfamiliar with Project Healing Waters, it sounds like a worthy cause. Good luck to you and your students!
With all due respect to Dale Clements and Wayne Cattanach (whom I am admittedly unfamiliar), if you are teaching a present-day rod building class, use present day technology. There is no better method for EFFICIENTLY spacing guides than the 2-line static load test. While charts and formulas may be an acceptable STARTING POINT, I do not even bother with them except for a suggested butt guide location. Simply, temporarily mount the guides to the blank (dental bands are great) starting at 3.5in from the tip top and progressively increase the spacing of the rest to the butt guide using the number of feet of blank length +2 for the number of guides (OK, I suppose that is a formula). When all the guides LOOK nice and progressively spaced, perform the 2-line static load test, both half and fully loaded as well. The static test will reveal any idiosyncrasies of that particular blank for fine-tuning the final positions of the guides. You will usually find very minimal fine-tuning required.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Many class instructors are simply trying to get students started in rod building. For them, and many of who are only going to build one or two rods, a formula is sufficient.

Conversely, advanced classes should including a more thorough understanding of the why and how of guide spacing. The OP will have to decide which he's after for his class purposes.

.........

Thanks to everyone who responded. We fully understand that Wayne's formula was for cane rods and of course Dale's formula was for Glass, but my students tend to be inquisitive about the origins of thing. Hence the questions on where the charts come from. To be honest, we use the charts from the blank manufacturer, then adjust to eliminate any flats using the standard flex test.

I do have one builder who uses a formula and then adjusts. Bottom line for us no matter what method we use to get the initial placement, its just a start and we adjust from there.

Again, many thanks for the responses, I appreciate all your inputs. But my original question is still not answered.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2022 11:21PM by John Wright.

John,
Sorry, but I cannot be of more help. With so many veterans onboard, someone must have an answer to your original question.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

John, since your question is about a well known bamboo rod maker, you might find the answer at a website dedicated to bamboo fly rods: www.classicflyrodforum,com/forum.

Peter,
I actually thought the same thing. "Great minds...". I am waiting on my acceptance into one of the Bamboo rod forums now. Hopefully later today. I am leaving in a little bit to meet with the Neb Game and Parks to build some rod lathes for the class. They have a complete shop so we are going to do a production kind of thing to turn out about ten today, or that's the plan anyway. I did 5 yesterday afternoon but waiting on wire for the "spring" and then it's just a mater of attaching them.
Thanks for everyone's ideas. I think I will find the answer eventually.

Found this link giving the formulas for various fly guide placement programs
[www.carlinbamboo.com]
Click on the information button. Hope it answers your question.
Norm
PS - I do agree that guide spacing programs and charts just give you a starting point. Doing a static deflection test provides the fine tuning adjustments required for more optimum spacing.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/24/2022 04:47PM by Norman Miller.