I built my first rod in 1958, and since I have built several others. Since then [with one exception] I have not seen a published, quantitative assessment of rod performance*, or found anyone kind enough to cite such a source. I have no alternative but to believe this silence is due to the lack of significant differences in performance between blanks and rods. I would welcome any PROOF to the contrary.
*There is a publication which yearly subjects various fly rods to many subjective AND OBJECTIVE TESTS and publishes the casting accuracy and casting distance of these rods in feet and inches.

I feel your pain Bro.

This is a familiar refrain/debate in any hobby or passion: "Why would anyone choose to do this any way but the way that I do it?"

Thousands of people, thousands of pursuits, thousands of reasons. Let better things trouble you.

I don't much care how someone else does it or his "feelings" about it, but I am interested in what it does - as revealed by observed facts.

Phil, from your perspective, what does a rod do; what facts are you hoping to observe? How do you define "rod performance"? Are other individual fishermen allowed to have a differing definitions and expectations?

Are you attempting to argue that a rod assembled from pre-made, pre-packaged components will be the equal of a rod made of a collection of components intentionally designed, created, and selected for a specific fishing situation and/or presentation?

Joel: As fond as I am of my own opinions, when it comes to fishing rods I prefer facts to opinions: stuff like blank material, blank hoop strength, rod weight, reel seat construction, guide types, guide numbers, guide placement, guide ring material, handle material, handle diameter/comfort. As for "rod performance" - that depends upon what kind of rod it is: a trolling rod? a fly rod? BTW: Many current rod kits are are created and designed by experts who know as much or more about rod building as the most accomplished amateur builder knows.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/15/2022 07:40PM by Phil Ewanicki.

It seems to me that in not answering my inquiries, you are deferring your own opinions to those you consider "experts". Why not just defer the construction to "experts" as well?

I'd say that personal opinions are every bit as important, if not more, as these "facts" you speak of. That is why I asked. After all, it is the rodbuilder that has to use these facts to make decisions in the building of a rod.

For me and many others, the endeavor of rodbuilding, and fishing in parallel, is about the continuous building of skills and knowledge just as much as it is about creating rods and catching fish.

Kits are a great place to start, and even continue a rodbuilding journey. However, believing that there is nothing beyond an assembled kit in the performance arena of fishing rods is taking your rudder out of the water on the journey.

I am going to throw something out here for the members to chew on. I say that there is no difference in a "kit" and a rod project where you pick out your own pieces. The only difference is that with the kit somebody else picked the pieces out. But the pieces are all still off the shelf parts. You might pick out a different seat or thread color than what comes in the kit but all the stuff being used is still just off the shelf parts and pieces. Without getting into the argument over what makes a custom rod, for me the dividing line begins where the rod builder starts modifying and making some of the parts. Glueing up and turning his own grips and handles. Maybe 3D printing some of the parts being used. Or machining something else that goes on the rod. When you start making and adding stuff that you cannot buy off the shelf (IMO) you are entering a new realm in custom rod building. Just my .02.

Stephen White Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What is the point of buying a rod kit that ends up
> being the complete rod? I guess I don't get it, if
> everything is preselected then its not to
> customize and get exactly what you want, right? Is
> it to save dough or just wanting the thrill of
> putting pre-selected parts together?

Mr. White- I would ask you what parts and pieces on your rod do you make yourself? If you are just picking out stuff from a catalog then are your rods really any different from rods made from kits? Just different parts maybe but still off the shelf stuff. Does not seem "custom" to me. But I have no idea what your rods use or how you go about building them. Just putting my .02 in here for some additional things to think about.

All the rods I have made are custom, in that there are no other rods exactly like them, unless I choose to make rods exactly like them. Doesn't matter if I picked the parts, made the parts, or someone else picked the parts. There are a million ways to make your custom rods more interesting. Some I like, such as turning your own handles, or interesting thread work, and some that I choose not to learn right now, like feathers and snakeskin. They all great things to do, interesting skills, and make rods look cool. If you choose to make rods out of graphite or fiberglass you pretty much can't the blank yourself. There are a very limited number of guides you could make yourself. So make what you want, learn what you want, and compliment what other people do. And fish how you want to, with what rods you want to. Some rods are just more fun to fish. Doesn't mean they catch more, but if catching more was really the point, we'd use nets, right?

I like the rods I have built and I enjoyed building them but I don't BELIEVE the rods I build are superior in performance to rods built by quality, name brand rod companies - nor do I have any physical PROOF that my rods out-perform quality, factory-built rods. I do not know of any rod-builder who has offered physical measurements as proof that a rod he or she built out-performs a quality factory-built rod, but I would welcome such proof if it exists? I will concede that individual rod builders make prettier rods than factory models.

I don't think it is a really often a question of better as many seem to be talking about, but maybe better for who the rod is being built for. If you buy a good rod off the shelf or build one from a great kit no doubt you are probably going to get a great rod but if you or your customer wants or needs something different then knowing how to match up the components for that needed rod might result in what the person fishing the rod would call a better rod for themselves.

I have been converted on kits however. I really didn't get before that many rod builders just want to enjoy themselves by building out their rods but they just don't have the time and/or the inclination to become rod experts so they like to shop and buy kits and build great rods from them. Not a thing in the world wrong or less than doing that, more power to them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2022 11:15AM by Stephen White.

Phil, in thinking that the best a custom rodbuilder can do is make a prettier rod, it's my opinion, based on lots of first-hand empirical evidence, that you are completely missing a huge aspect of custom rod building.

I'll just leave it at that.

"Prettier" usually means heavier, and heavier means decreased rod performance. In truth, the loss in performance is usually very small because the adornments don't usually weigh much, but I have seen rods where windings covered large areas of the blank, sometimes several layers of thread and epoxy. These were built for beauty, not performance. Nearly all of them I have seen were spinning rods, casting rods, or trolling rods - not fly rods. Fly casters who build fly rods quickly learn any added weight on a fly rod produces noticeably poorer casting performance. The closer to the weight is to the rod tip the bigger the problem.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/18/2022 01:34PM by Phil Ewanicki.

Phil Ewanicki Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "Prettier" usually means heavier, and heavier
> means decreased rod performance. In truth, the
> loss in performance is usually very small because
> the adornments don't usually weigh much, but I
> have seen rods where windings covered large areas
> of the blank, sometimes several layers of thread
> and epoxy. These were built for beauty, not
> performance. Nearly all of them I have seen were
> spinning rods, casting rods, or trolling rods -
> not fly rods. Fly casters who build fly rods
> quickly learn any added weight on a fly rod
> produces noticeably poorer casting performance.
> The closer to the weight is to the rod tip the
> bigger the problem.

Prettiest rod to me is a split carbon fiber (lightweight) handle, VSS seat, no fore grip, no hook keeper, black thread on a black rod, with black titanium guides. Probably explains why all my vehicles are black on black too. Sometimes pretty is performance and performance is pretty.

Fly rods are typically beautified in their handles and seats. I don't see many burled wood handles and seat inserts used in bass fishing or salmon trolling.

Less is more. But I always add a Norm Miller style home made hook keeper.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/21/2022 07:45PM by Lynn Behler.

The joy of custom rod building is the variety of builds that can be made. Everyone knows that I like CTS blanks, both, fiberglass and carbon. But I prefer to purchase the other parts of the rod from wherever I can find what I'm looking for. On a fly rod, do I want the striper to be alconite, torzite, agate, or some other material. Do I want single foot runners, or snake guides? How many guides am I going to use? What decals will I put on the rod. How long will the rod be? Will it have a fighting butt? Will I use a hook keeper, and if so, what style? Will the handle be a full wells, a reverse half wells, a Western handle? Will I be purchasing a reel seat with a wooden insert, or maybe made of scrimshaw elk, or an exotic wood?

The answers to these questions will make my rod truly custom, both for me, and the customer. As far as build quality, I use Winston, Batson, Rodgeeks, and CTS blanks to fit the rod's purpose, doing research to find the best fit. Then, I load the rod with a quality reel within the customer's budget, spooled with gel spun backing, a quality fly line, leader, and tipet, all tied with the correct knots, and ready to fish. Even the rod case, tube is customizable.

A kit can't give you that. Yes, you will get a quality rod from a kit. It won't have your personality built into it though

Tight Lies and frisky fish

RJF

After 65 years of rod building I still enjoy building rods, but I remain convinced that the rods I build will not out-perform quality, pre-built rods - at least I have never seen any PROOF that a rod built by an individual performs any better than a quality, corporation-built rod.

Phil I'm truly sorry that you've never had the opportunity to be in a fishing situation where a custom rod could show how it can outperform a mass-produced rod. 65 years is a long time to wait.

I'll offer you an example for consideration, one of many that I have.

I built a 13-foot centerpin float rod for my friend Andy. I put recoil guides on it, for the simple reason that they are easy to free of ice buildup when fishing for steelhead in sub-freezing temps.

Last month he's fishing, standing in a river next to his friend Marlon, who is using the finest of the fine, a 13-foot G. Loomis IMX centerpin rod, retail, $470.

Andy just has to flick his guides with a gloved hand to free them of ice. Marlon has to warm them in his mouth, or carefully pick the ice away, lest he damage his guides. This takes a minute or two or three for Marlon, a task Andy can perform in seconds.

Over the course of the fishing day, Andy made at least 25 more drifts with his float than Marlon has been able to, including hooking a fish while Marlon was cleaning his guides.

Tell me, which rod outperformed the other?