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Length of winding
Posted by: Micky Comley (---.176.213.151.dynamic.ip.windstream.net)
Date: December 31, 2021 12:20AM

Howdy All! Very new to all this and am learning much from this forum. Thank you! Question please. Is there a rule of thumb about how many wraps (or winds?) to make before starting to walk the thread up the guide foot? Does that length depend on the size guide, ie: gets shorter (or fewer) as you work your way up the rod with decreasing size guides?

Mic

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Re: Length of winding
Posted by: Spencer Phipps (---)
Date: December 31, 2021 01:21AM

I use three, it lets me get a good lockdown of the thread and still minimize wrap weight, this means the wraps on each end of a doublefoot guide are not the same length, but no one has complained.

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Re: Length of winding
Posted by: Micky Comley (---.176.213.151.dynamic.ip.windstream.net)
Date: December 31, 2021 01:55AM

Wow! That means I have been using way too much thread and making too many winds. Been doing 1/4” or more and not all are the same number of wraps. Counting winds would solve my inconsistent winding lengths. I think part of that problem is my not being proficient at starting my winds. CURE = practice starting winds!!! Thanks Spencer.

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Re: Length of winding
Posted by: Michael Sutheimer (---.wi.res.rr.com)
Date: December 31, 2021 03:07AM

It is really personal preference. Some people like just enough thread to start the wrap prior to the guide foot. Others like myself use a bit more. I tend to use about a quarter of the stripper guide length as my wrap prior to the foot for all my reduction guides. Any trim wraps I count the number of wraps. For my runner guides I again go approx quarter of the guide foot. I measure all my wraps with a caliper from the tip of the guide foot. I wrap four or five wraps measure, slide the band of threads to were they need to go.

Once I wrap the first runner guide I measure the total length of the wrap. From guide leg to end of wrap. I make sure all my wraps from there forward are the same length or less. Not really set on how I do this . Since all the runners are same size the feet are the same and the wraps end up being the same. Which is fine. But I am a bit old school and each wrap being progressively smaller is kinda stuck in my brain. So sometimes I will drop a mm or two off each wrap depending on how many runners I have. Bounce around of this, still deciding what my style should be.

Counting number of wraps before the guide foot is easy. Works fine for guides of different sizes. But I would not count on it for guides of the same size or double foots. More than once I found guides of the same size with drastically different amounts of foot prep that alters the foot length noticeable. If you count wraps off that length you might end up with wraps of inconsistent/out of proportion length.

No substitute for measuring. Get yourself a caliper. To simplify things get a metric one. Much easier to remember and read XX mm opposed to .XX inches.

You have not being doing it wrong just different than Spencer just as I have been doing it different than him. Remember these two words CUSTOM RODBUILDING.

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Re: Length of winding
Posted by: Micky Comley (---.176.213.151.dynamic.ip.windstream.net)
Date: December 31, 2021 03:40AM

Thank you Michael! When you say a quarter of the stripper guide length, are you meaning a qtr. of the length of the guide foot I am about to wrap? Seems to make sense to my mind. Measuring would be key. I’ve got Starrett dial calipers and use Siri as my conversion constant.
To repeat: 1/4 of the length of stripper guide foot for stripper and all reduction guides. All runners are same measured length as the first runner guide wrapped.
“CUSTOM” rod building. Excellent point!!

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Re: Length of winding
Posted by: Kendall Cikanek (---)
Date: December 31, 2021 05:09AM

It takes some practice in wrapping and guide preparation to get the thread locked and smoothly ramping up the guide foot with just three wraps. If it takes you five wraps for a couple of builds, don’t sweat it. It will look great and any functional differences are probably immeasurable. The least wraps you can neatly and uniformly do off of the foot is obviously best for weight and sensitivity. However, knocking yourself out over a couple of rows isn’t necessary. Heck, it’s amazing how extremely hampered for fishing are virtually all of the “award winning” custom built rods. If the very near term future is anything like every recent past year, you will soon see this very phenomenon. Compared to this extreme errata, your 1/4 inch off of the guide wraps are completely not worth worrying about.

Getting better doesn’t mean that the rods you have already built should concern you. There is a magic that happens when you go with minimum builds, on really light blanks, while using the lightest components. I have built a few of these rods, but I still build some with a tilt towards cost savings. I also have incredible fishing memories on my early builds that contain elements that differ from what I currently do and prefer.

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Re: Length of winding
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: December 31, 2021 06:30AM

It is my opinion that Spencer uses about the minimum that one can reliably accomplish, and I don't think I can do that. But the point that the wraps should be kept to a minimum is valid. Longer wraps mean more epoxy and especially near the tip of the rod it will significantly slow the response time of the rod down. All that is necessary is for the complete foot of the guide to be covered plus a little insurance off the end to prevent any tiny defect or crack from allowing water in.

Use whatever "minimum" length you can accomplish.

Yes, as guides get smaller the wraps get shorter, and that causes no problems functionally or cosmetically.

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Re: Length of winding
Posted by: Michael Sutheimer (---.wi.res.rr.com)
Date: December 31, 2021 07:45AM

Micky the stripper guide is what I call the first guide in your reduction train, your largest guide. I use a 1/4 of the length of that guide foot to establish the length prior to the guide foot for all the reduction guides. Example stripper guide foot is 40mm. I would wrap 10mm before the guide foot for all reduction guides. I do this as to my eye the transition to the guide foot is so noticeable on the reduction guides. I like to have the "flat spot" prior to the guide foot the same length for each guide. Just the look I prefer.

For the runners. First runner guide is for example 16mm I would wrap 4mm before the foot and then make sure all the following wraps don't exceed 20mm.

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Re: Length of winding
Posted by: ben belote (---.hsd1.md.comcast.net)
Date: December 31, 2021 08:33AM

because of my poor sight and old man hands i wrap guides from the ring end to tip but don,t go over the tip onto the blank..i use seymo cp rod seal for the wraps, no e poxy finish..it doesn,t get any lighter..durability is good so far..i don,t sell rods and probably couldn,t, not near enough bling..since i build on e-glass i try to keep the weight down on the guide train..so far so good..lol.

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Re: Length of winding
Posted by: Kent Griffith (---)
Date: December 31, 2021 09:00AM

Micky Comley Wrote:

> Is there a rule of thumb about how many wraps (or
> winds?) to make before starting to walk the thread
> up the guide foot?
>
> Mic


There is no rule of thumb. In custom rods it is do as you want to. But for some of us engineering and technical details far outweigh any artistic value, and given this consideration, a guide requires thread only on the foot. A bare rod has no need of any thread wraps for any reason. If the thread extends beyond the guide foot it is doing nothing of value and is now just dead weight and turns into possibly artistic worthlessness that contributes to desensitizing a rod.

I strictly adhere to this and do no thread wraps where they provide no engineering or technical value.

But to each their own as custom rod building today leans more towards art than useful tools of engineering perfection! Ha!

Try starting the thread wrap on the other end and don't let it go off the end of the guide foot. Then there is no need for any ramping up from a bare rod. How did this practice of thread wrapping blank rod space ever get started in the first place!?!?!?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2021 09:03AM by Kent Griffith.

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Re: Length of winding
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: December 31, 2021 09:36AM

I start just a few winds off the end of the guide foot. It's all that's needed and any more simply adds weight (mostly from the finish you cover those additional winds with). It's a very small amount of weight, but it indeed makes a difference you can feel in rod speed on lighter rods.

If weight is not a priority and you like the look of longer guide wraps, that's up to you.
.............

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Re: Length of winding
Posted by: Micky Comley (---.176.213.151.dynamic.ip.windstream.net)
Date: December 31, 2021 10:40AM

Thanks Guys!! Awesome info and perspectives. Minimalization (sp) sounds like the key to retaining the characteristics of the blank. Tom - GREAT forum, lots of SME’s, thank you for your time!!

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Re: Length of winding
Posted by: ben belote (---.hsd1.va.comcast.net)
Date: December 31, 2021 11:05AM

Micky, what,s sme..

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Re: Length of winding
Posted by: Micky Comley (---.176.213.151.dynamic.ip.windstream.net)
Date: December 31, 2021 01:01PM

Subject Matter Experts

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Re: Length of winding
Posted by: ben belote (---.hsd1.va.comcast.net)
Date: December 31, 2021 01:39PM

TWOMH....Micky



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/31/2021 01:43PM by ben belote.

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Re: Length of winding
Posted by: Rob Matarazzo (---.dyn.optonline.net)
Date: December 31, 2021 02:31PM

It’s mainly personal preference, but anything excessive does more harm than good. I typically go with 1/8” or so, maybe 1/4” on a large saltwater rod.

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Re: Length of winding
Posted by: Micky Comley (---)
Date: December 31, 2021 04:41PM

Howdy Rob, this entire conversation has had the main theme that you are saying, ‘excess is bad for performance’ better to go a little small. Lesson learned!! This was an older Tournament Choice rod that I fished saltwater bays and light surf. Lost 4” of tip so I stripped it down and put new handle and guides on it. Put a new handle on cos the spine was off from the handle. (I think I did the right thing) Something else I have learned here!
Ben - you got me TWOMH?

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Re: Length of winding
Posted by: Micky Comley (---)
Date: December 31, 2021 05:00PM

Ben - no it’s not!

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Re: Length of winding
Posted by: Mark Talmo (---)
Date: December 31, 2021 05:10PM

Mickey,
All the above are good replies = not a bad one in the bunch. Other than aesthetics or trying to slow the rod recovery down, there is no need for the wraps to be any longer than what is required to begin the wrap and started climbing up the ramp of the foot. There are those who can wrap DOWN the ramp but I have not been able to master the technique.
Most will agree that for the overall rod to look proper, wrap length consistency (whether equal or progressively smaller) needs to be maintained for the full length. Keep in mind that due to the taper of the blank, an optical illusion occurs with the wraps. Even if all the wraps are precisely the same length, the wraps on the larger diameter butt section will APPEAR shorter than those on the smaller diameter tip section which APPEAR longer. I have no formula to compensate for the optical illusion but simply shorten the wraps by 1 or 2 rotations as they get closer to the tip. This may also entail adding a few extra rotations to the wraps closer to the butt. Splitting hairs? = possibly, but then, why should wrapping be exempt from other aspects of rod building lol.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

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Re: Length of winding
Posted by: ben belote (---.hsd1.md.comcast.net)
Date: December 31, 2021 05:48PM

Micky, TWOMH, i forget..i made it up then forgot..should have written it down.Ha, sorry..don,t get old..lol.

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