I’ve heard crappie fishermen claim that the weight of guides on a light powered rod will help propel very light jigs. I.E., A light lure will not load a rod, whereas the additional guide weight would assist in rod-loading, thus catapulting the lure. It does kinda make sense, but I’d guess speed/recovery would suffer, which could mitigate some advantage. Any thoughts?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/19/2021 02:40PM by jim spooner.

the extra weight should be added to the line not the rod..maybe a lead shot or a small float or use a fly rod..

You are correct. If the lure and angler input is not sufficient to load the rod, you could add more weight to the rod in the form or more or heavier guides to get it to fully load on the cast (although it still wouldn't net you as much distance as using a heavier lure or jig). The downside would be just as you say - rod speed would suffer and the rod would be carrying that additional weight not just during the cast, but all the time. So why add more guides to a blank to get it to load properly? Buy the right blank for the lure weights you intend to cast in the first place.

Some years ago there was a rod builder who advocated using a tremendous number of guides on a fly rod in order to allow the rod to cast lighter lines than it was designed for. And it would do it. But why do that when you can buy the right blank for the line to begin with. Why penalize yourself in all other instances when a heavier line or proper matching blank would be a better way to go?

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/19/2021 10:17PM by Tom Kirkman.

Jim,
While certainly not a seasoned veteran rod builder like ben or Tom, simple logic suggests to me they are correct on all counts. My thinking sees it as although using heavier guides might help load the rod, it will also slow the recovery rate which in turn slows the rod’s ability to propel the lure. Personal experiences fishing very light (<1/8oz) lures (crappie jigs alot) for mountain trout have benefited from the use of an UL rod (1-4lb) with a medium, or even slow, action to load the rod as you pointed out; one of the main reasons I love my old, vintage, FG Conolons = hard to find a CF rod with the same attributes. But to add weight to the actual rod simply to assist loading it, ultimately seems counterproductive. As Tom mentioned = find the correct blank in the first place!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Not only rod weight rating but rod action needs to taken into consideration for casting. I tend to use a moderate action as my my decision point when all else will be equal. Mod or less I will step down in power modfast and up I will not. For example. If i want a light weight/power rod that for whatever reason will suit me best as a moderate action. I will find a blank that matches all specs as close as possible except for power rating being ultralight. Usually the top end of the UL rating will overlap to mid range of the Light rating.Modfast or faster action tends to load up just fine in relation to the applications dictated by the rod weight/power rating. This is not always the case. But found it to be a fairly good guideline after more or less specializing in building ultalight and light panfish and stream trout spin rods.

Thanks for your thoughts.
I think it's a situation of “is” vs. “what could/should be”. Most factory crappie (panfish) rods I’ve seen tend to be buggy whips with relatively large guides. I’m sure there’s a faction within custom rod makers that build “ultra-light” rods for trout, crappie and bluegill that are capable of throwing 1/32 ounce lures.
It’s not my forte, but if I were to pursue it, I’d go with a bit longer blank that I’d normally prefer (greater lure speed), with a slow action with high modulus to control “waggle” (light weight/faster recovery) and the lightest (pricey) guide train possible. Not a rod I’d want to see banging around in a Jon boat (Ha).

Jim,,
Simply put - very little change in casting distance on a given set of rods when one uses the same line and the same terminal tackle.

i.e. casting a heavy weight - with any rod and any set of guides will go further with the same sets of rod blank - when one uses a much lighter terminal tackle.

i.e. the casting distance is essentially a function of terminal tackle - lure weight, jig weight, bobber weight. and any thing else that will have weight and tend to change the potential energy by virtue the mass of the terminal tackle items into the Kinetic energy that is propelling the jig, bobber, lure, hook or other terminal tackle.

(Potential energy definition) ---potential energy, stored energy that depends upon the relative position of various parts of a system. A spring has more potential energy when it is compressed or stretched. A steel ball has more potential energy raised above the ground than it has after falling to Earth.Nov 16, 2021

(kinetic energy definition) ---- Kinetic energy is a form of energy that an object or a particle has by reason of its motion. If work, which transfers energy, is done on an object by applying a net force, the object speeds up and thereby gains kinetic energy.Nov 16, 2021

Note --- the actual source of energy that allows the jig or lure to fly to its definition is the Energy or (Work) that streams from the muscles in a users arm - to the butt of the rod blank - then through the rod blank on up to the terminal tackle.

i.e. the greater rod tip velocity that is achieved by the user moving their arm, and wrist, and rod grip and rog tip --- the further the distance that the user will observe that his terminal tackle has gone further, or less far - simply by measuring the force input to the rod grip from the users arm.

Thus, the lure distance is simply determined by the users arm energy being transferred to the butt of the rod blank, through the rod blank, and ultimately onto the lure as the weight of the lure absorbs the casters arm energy and uses it to propel the lure or hook by virtue of the transferred energy.

Take care



Best wishes



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/20/2021 01:40PM by roger wilson.

A 1 to 4 lb blank does a pretty good job of wiggling on it's own without guides, I wouldn't add guide weight till I was sure there was no other way. I haven't had to.

Roger,
That's a response I'd expect from Cliff Claven on the Cheers sit-com. My take-away from all that (I think) is that you think the rod power is irrelavant.....if so, I diagree.

Spencer,
Agreed, although adding more guide weight is not the issue. I was initially referring to the relatively large/heavy guides on "factory" crappie rods and their affect on casting light lures.

I don't think the companies who make crappie rods intentionally choose large, heavy guides to help cast lighter lures. Almost certainly they choose very inexpensive guides, which are usually large and heavy compared to what most custom builders employ, in order to have their rods meet a certain price point.

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ln Tom,s rod building book, he describes how attaching a 50# bag of sand kills the spring in the board and the diver can,t leap in the air near as high..it makes the point very clear..the extra weight is too much for the board to carry and still work.

In that instance that extra 50lbs overloads the board's optimum weight capacity. The scenario Jim presents above is a bit different in that the lure than angler wishes to cast isn't enough to optimally load the rod to begin with.

If the rod doesn't have enough lure weight on it to load it easily, then additional or larger-heavier guides can supply enough weight to load it properly. It may cast farther in that instance, but still won't optimum. The problem is that the rod now has to carry that additional weight all the time. The speed of reaction and recovery slows. The rod will oscillate longer after the cast before it returns to straight. It's a poor way to solve a problem that is easier and better corrected with a rod that is better matched to the lure the angler wishes to cast, or by using lure than better matches the optimum casting weight range of the blank.

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that,s another thing too..the rod blank will no longer cast efficiently the lures it was designed for..the rod is not doing anything well..

Exactly. It's a bad solution to the problem.

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I've always been curious about this - the experience that a rod will not load properly. I guess I don't understand because I have yet to find a single UL BLANK without any guides or line or lure that will not load properly when I test 'cast' with it. Basically one can WHIP any UL blank so quickly that it will load and release even before building. So I never thought that a UL blank won't load properly. This includes some very high power to weight ratio blanks that are very fast recovery.

Not debating - trying to understanding. Can anyone enlighten me as to what I may beg missing?

Casting technique plays a lot into things as well. A technique that does not match the rod weight and action will not properly load it. See it a lot with people that step down to UL fishing. They don't realize the actually force that needs to be put into a cast. Ul rods are much more of a snap of the wrist cast. The more gentle full forearm lob type cast might work fine with everything else but not a UL. Even worse is the two handed cast. A UL will store less energy and release it quicker so much so I think some people are assuming the rod is not loading.You have to impart more energy to your lure through your casting technique as the blank ain't going to help you much.

most spin fishers grew up using a float and bait..the lob cast is in our blood..lol.

Ben guilty as charged lol. True a lob cast is just fine with float and bait which is probably at least double the weight rating of most UL blanks. And some delicate live baits require such a cast. Now as Ul fisherman evolve, as a lot do, you start fishing true UL baits and the lob cast ain't doing much for you. As with all fishing, technique needs to mesh with equipment. True UL fishing has a very narrow window for those two to mesh. Accurately casting to a reasonable distance a single salmon egg on a number 14 hook with no weight is a bit different game than a worm under a golfball size float and a peasize sinker.

Michael, i don,t recall using salmon eggs but if i did it probably was under a float..just can,t get it out of the blood..lol. i bet salmon eggs make great carp bait..i,ll try it some day. not on an ultra light..lol.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/23/2021 08:35AM by ben belote.

The rod does not "push" the lure/bait, no matter how powerful the rod is. The rod can only pull, not push the line - and the lure or weight tied to it. You and you alone provide the power for the cast. The bent length of the rod provides leverage to increase the speed and distance of your cast. It's a question of physical science, not belief.