I built a Judge 7' L spinning rod with a guide train of 30, 16, 12, 10, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, and an 8 tip top. It casts very well for my purposes but was wondering what would happen if after the 12 I went to all 10's. The reason being is that I find when I tie on a leader larger then 40lb the knot size gets to a size where you feel it really hitting the guides. Will this significantly change casting distance or any other characteristics of the rod? The primary use for these rods is throwing live baits and plugs to pelagic.

David,
I can only afford you with my novice observations but will follow your thread to learn what the veterans have to offer. I cannot imagine increasing the size of the runner from 8s to 10s having any ill-effects; the minimal increase in weight should not slow the frequency of that blank enough to be noticeable. But before you go through the hassle of replacing the runners, try changing your knot connection, especially to a FG knot; the FG is the slimmest knot possible and is very secure.
Just out of curiosity, why didn’t you use the KR Concept with a KL25H, KL12H reduction train followed by your 8s (or 10s) runners? Actually, the KR Concept includes a third reduction guide = a KL5.5M which is obviously even smaller than your present 8.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

I agree with Mark.

Change the guides to larger sizes, and enjoy the more enjoyable fishing with no swivel knock.

Sorry I made a mistake, it goes 30, 20, 16, 10, and on two 8's. Don't know what I was thinking when I wrote it. Lot's of numbers floating around in my brain.

David,
Apparently you have built a cross between a Cone-Of-Flight (COF) and a New-Guide-Concept (NGC) rod. It should work adequately and so enjoy it. Next time-around, try the KR Concept for an even better performing rod; you just might be amazed!
Have you given any consideration to employing a different knot before going through the pains of stripping and replacing the 8s with 10s? The 8s should be more than adequate with 6s or even possibly 5s being sufficient for your application.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

I agree that learning the proper knots is far easier the replacing guides. Slimmest nots - FG, Nail Knot, Blood knot, perfection loop, Albright knot. All of these are easy to tie, after you make a few of them. There are numerous videos that show how to tie them. They glide through glides.

Tight Lies and frisky fish

RJF

I don't intend to take the guides off. I have an identical blank that I want to build rather the same with the change of larger guides. I tend to fish mono offshore, I prefer braid inshore and for bottom fishing. I generally tie a bimini and then a no name knot attaching the leader to the bimini. I did not mean for it to sound like I was going to take the guides off. I put to much work into it to do that.

David,
I built a 40lb Yellowtail rod using size 6 runners that easily passes a FG knot of 50lb braid to 20-40lb flouro. Now that I understand you will be building an identical rod rather than replacing the runners on the existing rod, this would be a perfect time and comparison to experience the difference the KR Concept WILL provide. Almost a year ago, I built a COF rod using an “identical” blank as one of my KR Concept rods specifically to test the casting difference. That difference was 11.5%! Try it, you’ll like it!
[www.rodbuilding.org]

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

You need to know the line type and pound test/diameter before you can say a KR concept build would be something to consider since the KR concept is mostly a light line and light braid specific build . Reel model and type is important ESPECIALLY if using mono but less so for braid usage in the 30 pound test and under category .. The fishing the OP is doing sounds like a much more heavy duty build is warranted.

I use KR concept builds on my surf rods. . I use all single foots on the light action one and a double foot RV layout on the heavier duty one . A double foot KR concept build would work well for the OP's application but I have serious doubts about a single foot KR concept build for the type of fishing he is talking about .

I agree 100% with using much smaller runners if you can get away with mastering much slimmer knots as that will boost the overall efficiency of the build and reduce the weight out towards the tip .


A single foot KR concept build would be KL25H , KL12H, 5.5M which is a great layout for many builds and a Fuji recommended pairing , I just think it may not be ideal for this particular build . Mixing and matching is OK since the KR concept has a large selection of heights and ring sizes I just think the guides aren't the best pick for durability because they just aren't robust enough for heavier duty builds imo.

KR concept will work with heavier braids than "light," as I define "light." I use 21 pound Hitena Pure Line and it casts like some other braids at 15 pound test or less. Goes a mile with KLH 20-10-5.5M and Stradic 4000 reel. I think if one uses the newer premium braids the KLH will go a lot further up the pound test scale than one might initially assume. AnglersResource has solutions for mono that are the equivalent of much higher pound tests in premium braids.

I have to remind those posting of the original post description of the rod as "7 ' L" which I assume is 7 foot light. Granted, a 40 pound leader seems inconsistent with a 7 foot Light power rod, but just to address what guide train will work with heavier than "light" braids, the KLH guide train will work, and will not be over-stressed on anything close to a 7 foot light rod. It does not require double foot guides.

If 7' L refers to something else, then hearing what it does refer to will help with a good solution.

David, the no name knot is going to have a little tag end sticking out at 90 degrees. That is probably what you are feeling. It isn't harming anything but if it bothers you you have a few options.

Of course you could consider trying different knots. Perhaps try a "dressing" to make a knot a smooth blob.

Then you can investigate ways to get by with a lighter leader. I'll often fish two/three hook rigs to keep the fish's mouth/teeth off the leader. Ditto on using a jig. I have caught a lot of king mackerel that way with 40# mono leaders. For big barracuda I put a small black barrel swivel on and use 6" of black nylon coated wire with crimp sleeves to a small short shank black owner hook. Use what works for you. You get the idea, keep the mouth/teeth off the 40# mono leader..

Now sometimes you need that heavy leader for things like abrasion resistance instead of strength. What I like to do is tie my Bimini twist. Then put on a shock leader of twice that line strength, so say 20# Bimini to no name 40# shock leader. I make the shock leader long enough to have a few wraps around the reel spool when the fish is in gaffing range. Then tie your heavy leader (I go twice what the shock leader is and use a surgeons knot) to the shock leader but try to keep that knot outside the guide train when casting.

I get by with 8's but nothing wrong with 10's if they make you more comfortable/confident.

And just because I'm that type of guy.....since you already have one built as a spinning rod why don't you try the other out as a casting rod? Lexa, Tranx, and Komondo are serious saltwater low profile casting reels. Use a mono top shot just a bit longer than your best casting distance and use braid backing if you need extra line capacity. I have my ABU 6500's and my Penn 525 mag's but a Lexa/Tranx is on my next reel buy list. Small and light enough to be fun on 5# schoolies with a jig and squid but enough reel for a 30# bull if he shows up!

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

FWIW the blank in question is a 7 foot 15-30# rated live bait blank. In David's waters he would be catching dolphin, sailfish, wahoo, kingfish, blackfin tuna along with a smattering of others. He would be mostly casting live bait to sighted fish, free lining live bait, some trolling, and occasionally tossing/trolling lures.

For trolling braid is considered dangerous here. Even when not trolling it is often necessary for a mate to have to touch the line in the process of landing the fish and that is not something you want to do with braid and fast/powerful fish.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

That's why they make stripping gloves.

Tight Lies and frisky fish

RJF

After looking at the OP's original post again Mr. Danek is correct I completely missed the 7 foot 'L' rating , I focused on the OP's choices in guide sizes which do not in any way shape or form corelate with a 7 foot light action rod . A KR concept would indeed be the way to go but if the OP insists on using a line type and rating that does not fit well with a KR concept build then why bother .

Most people are not using the super advanced super thin super expensive Japanese braids as impressive as they are . Those braids will indeed work well even with smaller collector guides in higher pound tests but as a general rule if you're using 40 to 50 pound braid a single foot KL25H is not a great choice. I can't see using braid in the 40 to 50 pound test range on a 7 foot light action rod anyway .

Light power. Action was not mentioned.

The Judge 7" L is fast action, and just because it says light power it is a very strong rod for what I'm using it for. Throwing live baits at pelagics of all size. The real is a 5000 Daiwa Saltist. The idea of the rod is to make small fish still fun but can stand up to a large dolphin, or sail. I find a lot of the big offshore spinners to powerful when most the fish are on the maller side of what they are meant for. And I only use mono offshore except for bottom fishing.I do apreciate everyones input. I know we all have are prefered methods of fishing.

I assume larger guides will not produce greater accuracy? It's tough to tell how much (if at all) larger guides will improve distance, since nobody ever states distance numbers. Improving distance is an act of faith, so pick the plan which you tend to most believe in. I further assume guide size governs accuracy also, but only as long as you don't measure and report accuracy with actual numbers.

No one has suggested that larger guides improve accuracy. Depending on the line used, some arguments have been made for smaller guides to improve distance. It's about controlling the line properly. I think with smaller guides the rod can push the line out better. :-)

Phil, maybe most fisherman aren,t impressed with claims of distance or accuracy, especially those with some experience..