Batson, all those factors you just mentioned determine taper also...the word action is not neeed, it just confounds things and in my opinion that,s the purpose..

Sorry Ben, it's just not so. A composite live bait blank is a good example. If you have two blanks with the exact same taper measurements, one made completely of e glass, and one made from graphite that transitions into an e glass tip, the actions of each will be different, even though the tapers are the same. The same goes for all-graphite blanks. In general, thicker walls can be used to reduce a blank's diameter while maintaining an action similar to a thin-walled larger diameter blank. Both methods of construction have their pro & cons and there are limits to what can be achieved with each style.

-The Batson TEAM
BatsonEnterprises.com

Right - taper is a good indicator of action, but it's not the entire picture because you're only seeing the outer taper, not the inner, and that could be different depending on the mandrel used and the particular pattern wrapped around it. Then you get into those blanks which contain a mix of more than one fiber type. I have some live bait blanks which are a combination of glass (end to end) but have a carbon outer wrap from about 3/4's back from the tip on down to the butt. They are faster in action than similar all carbon blanks that at least to the eye have roughly the same taper.

Still, taper is generally a good way to get some idea of what a blank's action will be. Typically if you were to see a couple of carbon blanks and one model showing a butt diameter of .750 and a tip diameter of 4/64's, there's a better than even chance that it's going to lean towards having a faster action than a rod with a butt of .450 and a tip diameter of the same 4/64's. But it's not ironclad.

..........

Batson, you could could also build the two rods with the same actions but the tapers would be different because the materials are different..that,s fine but i,m questioning the use of the word 'action' to describe a rods flex profile that,s all..there are much less confusing words..it does not have to be taper..but maybe one that shows the dimesional aspect of the rod flex along the rrod..i just like taper..such as short taper, long or medium taper rod..that would give you a better idea of how far the flex would go into the rod initially..no speed involved at all..speed is confusing enough by it,self..lol.

Tom, i read this forum almost ever day and it amases me how often you have corrected people for using the word 'action' improperly to describe rod speed or power..of all people i figured you would most likely want to get rid of it..lol.. in my small way i,m not going to use it anymore..wish me luck..lol.

It's not within my power to do away with a word and definition that has been used by the manufacturers for over 60 years now.

..........

Spine is another word that has been used and abused..

Mine sure has. Running 90lb jackhammer was not friendly to it. But a sore back beats college debt.

"Taper is just one of multiple factors that determine action, so the two cannot be used interchangeably. Other factors include wall thickness, pattern design, fiber type, resin system, and so on. All that said, if you look at enough blank specs over a long enough period of time, you can check tip diameter, butt diameter, material, and weight, and get a fairly decent idea of what you're dealing with on those specs alone."


I couldn't agree more. I'm sure I'm not the only one that would love to see a "sticky post" about some "rules of thumb" You know, something like a high modulus 7' blank where butt diameter equals tip diameter in 64's will typically be a spin-jig blank and should come in around 1 ounce per 10#'s of rated strength. That is, butt diameter of 0.55", tip 5/64, blank weight 2.1 ounce.....in top grade material....probably equals a nice jig rod rated 12-20#. Make it a 7' composite blank and I'd expect tip size to be a little bigger than butt and blank weight to be almost double the line rating for a live bait rod. That is butt diameter 0.59", tip 7/64", blank weight 5.9 ounces, rated 15-30#. Difference is I expect that composite blank to dead lift 30#'s, not sure I'm willing to risk hanging 20#'s off that sweet fresh water blank just to prove it isn't a factory defective:)

All the above is totally made up and doesn't reflect any current offerings, just my experience to date. I guess that means it should reflect a lot of the top offerings though.

And pretty, pretty please, do talk about trade offs with thin wall/fat diameter vs thick wall/thin diameter. That I don't have any kind of handle on.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

You can increase stiffness most effectively by increasing the diameter. You can also increase stiffness by thickening the walls, but it takes a lot more material to get to that same stiffness via thicker walls.

Here are your trade-offs regarding thinner wall/larger diameter versus thicker wall/smaller diameter blanks. Assuming the same material, the former gives you more stiffness for the same weight (or the same stiffness at less weight) although less durability, the latter gives you less stiffness for the same weight but more durability. Most manufacturers attempt to find a sweet spot where they can offer the most stiffness for the weight involved, but with adequate durability. So on fly rods you might be willing to trade a little durability to get the required stiffness at less weight which little more diameter with thinner walls would provide, while a stand-up rod might favor a bit more durability with less regard to weight so in that case the maker might decide a smaller diameter, thicker wall design is better. There is no single best design across the board. It depends on what the priority is for any given use.

.................



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/22/2021 11:12AM by Tom Kirkman.

No matter how stiff or "powerful" a rod blank might be it doesn't create any energy and add it to the cast. Only the caster does that. No energy is created by the rod, reel, or line - regardless of what silly claims advertisers make.

Phil Ewanicki Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No matter how stiff or "powerful" a rod blank
> might be it doesn't create any energy and add it
> to the cast. Only the caster does that. No energy
> is created by the rod, reel, or line - regardless
> of what silly claims advertisers make.


Not true. When shooting docks for crappie, where does the energy to get the offering out to the fish come from. There is no cast made in this technique.

Terry, good point..i should have thought of that because i do a lot of bow and arrow casting and buillt a rod mainly for that techhnique..

The energy in the bow-and-arrow cast was provided by the angler, not the rod. Sorta like the batter, not the bat, hit the home run. Rod advertisers have successfully convinced consumers that cylinders of glass, graphite, bamboo, etc. create energy all by themselves?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/24/2021 08:15AM by Phil Ewanicki.

You provide the potential, the rod provides the kinetic.

As for the baseball analogy, if it were true then corking would be legal and so would metal bats.

Your analogy is faulty. If a rod provided the kinetic energy for a cast the angler would simply aim the rod, like a rifle, not swing it. Rod advertisements encourage this kind of thinking. Unlike baseball, there are no physical or human rules prohibiting the materials or structure used to make fish poles or any other lever, and no lever creates energy.

Does the rod not flex and briefly store, then release energy create by the caster? If lever motion were the only factor, a 5 wt and a 10 wt would perform identically under the same casting conditions. I'm just a marketing guy, but this doesn't seem like rocket science.
I'm also a fly caster and I've personally experienced that certain rods are more or less pleasant to cast, and some provide better performance in terms of distance, tighter loops, lighter presentation, etc. Phil are you saying that as an experienced fly caster I'm simply delusional?

-Geoff at Batson

a lever does create mechanical advantage..if long enough even you Phil could move the earth..lol.

A fishing rod is more than just a common lever. This was well pointed out, particularly, in the magazine article on building stand-up rods and the difference in line gain in rods of identical length but that possessed different actions.

............

Common or not, a fish pole is still a lever and still functions as one. You can't push a rope and a rod can't push a line, but a rod can pull a line and accelerate it, as any lever can. Rods do not create energy any more than a wire creates electricity.