Hey Phil,
I'm not sure if your referring to a specific rod blank manufacturer or distributor, but I sure hope your venom isn't directed at us. We strive to go above and beyond to provide tech specs on our blanks. Example: see this link (previously published on this forum) to the RX10 specs which include CCS measurements for AA and IP, as well as robust application data, prices, weights, and so on. [www.dropbox.com] Does it include the specs for competing blanks? Absolutely not, it's your job as the builder to seek that out and make the comparisons. Does it include blank patterns, mandrel specs, or pre-preg SKU's? No it does not. There is a line to be drawn when it comes to intellectual property info.
Regarding prices, we feel we're pretty competitive, especially when you look at the value Batson offers in the price of a rod blank. Not only do you get consistent quality, you also get well managed inventory on hand and ready to ship, old fashioned phone or email service from a real person that knows what they're talking about, AND warranty service how it was 20 years ago (no hassles about cause of breakage or extra warranty insurance charges.) All around a superior value in this writer's opinion. The only way we can get away with offering this type of value is by not selling crap, and our customers know it.

-The Marketing Guy at Batson

Phil, my day is not complete until i have supported one of your points..lol.

Batson Guy: Thanks for tip. BTW: I don't consider asking for concrete physical specifications about a product to be "venom"?! It would be nice if rod purveyors provided buyers with information about the dynamic physical properties of their products beyond LENGTH and WEIGHT - provided it in ads and on packaging. What's to hide?

Fyi, the space between lines of type referred to as leading (pronounced ledding). From the letterpress days. Leading as in "leading the race" is a whole different word, despite the spelling.

Phil,
You ask what's to hide?

For you to ask such a question, causes me to wonder if you have ever worked in the free market and had to compete in the free market.

After years of working in the free market myself for many years - one finds that often the difference between a product and a competitors market is the one or one of many items that sets a product apart from its competition.

Absolutely, without a doubt the Differences are wha's to hide. If one product is not different from another, there would be no reason to buy one product compared to another product. In a very competitive market, it is often, those hidden and other wise unique differences that set one product apart from its competition.

But, by all means enjoy the product that is different and has that "special difference that sets it apart from its competition." These differences are what makes the free market successful. It is these differences, often hidden and known only to the manufacturer that gives the reason for a consumer to buy one product compared to another.

Enjoy the differences, and buy the product that gives YOU the product that you wish to own.

By very very happy, that there are innovators who can develop such a product using what ever techniques and or differences that are often found by years of thought, calculation, study, and trials and fails.

Be sake and build the rods that only others dream of because of the availability of the unique product and or technique that makes the build so special in the eyes of the final user.

Take care

roger: You said it: ". . . the differences are wha's to hide. If one product is not different from another, there would be no reason to buy one product compared to another product." I don't follow. You seem to propose rod retailers hide how their products differ from others! Why not trumpet these "Unique Differences" - unless you are running a bankruptcy scam?

Phil Ewanicki Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> roger: You said it: ". . . the differences are
> wha's to hide. If one product is not different
> from another, there would be no reason to buy one
> product compared to another product." I don't
> follow. You seem to propose rod retailers hide how
> their products differ from others! Why not trumpet
> these "Unique Differences" - unless you are
> running a bankruptcy scam?

Trumpet what makes the product superior to the competitor, and hide the process that give the product its unique qualities. Every major player, in any industry, be it building the most advanced fighter jets, the best rod blank, the fastest motocross bike, the best downhill skis, whatever, has things that set them apart, and are known only to the designers. We, as consumers, users of products often choose products based on perceptions, rather than realities. We may choose a vehicle based on loyalty, rather than the best vehicle for the purpose, or, as has been proven through study of the topic, because we took a chance, and purchased a particular brand, and the, because we chose it, and want to believe that we are savy buyers, proclaim it the best, even though there may be better products of the same type. We are imperfect, and subject to making numerous errors every day. We rely on companies to provide us with quality, top notch products. Unfortunately, many companies are after the quick buck,, and could care less about quality (ever purchase a Ginsu knife?). There are people who swear by Sage, or Winston, or... But are these really any better than a Batson, or CTS? They certainly cost more.

That's what forums such as rodbuilding.org are for, so we can compare experiences as we try, and use different products, and to learn the best techniques for achieving a desired result. Just like the smoke and mirrors of Ginsu Knives, the companies who make rod blanks want us to purchase their product, and spend a great deal of time and effort to persuade us that their product is best. Fortunately for us, most rod blank companies really do try to make a quality product.

Tight Lies and frisky fish

RJF

Phil Ewanicki Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> roger: You said it: ". . . the differences are
> wha's to hide. If one product is not different
> from another, there would be no reason to buy one
> product compared to another product." I don't
> follow. You seem to propose rod retailers hide how
> their products differ from others! Why not trumpet
> these "Unique Differences" - unless you are
> running a bankruptcy scam?
t
Why do you even build rods if you think every manufacturer is out to bankrupt you? If you propose there are no differences in expensive blanks vs cheap blanks, why don't you purchase all your rods from the big box stores that will sell you a rod for 29.99? Why don't you just buy the cheapest blanks or parts you can and be happy. I suspect you know there are differences and you are the type of person who feels entitled to know every proprietary secret out there, and no matter how obstinate you choose to be, the manufacturers are not going to bend over to your clownish desires.

back to rod frequency which i think is a great tool for finding out which rods are better at fish fighting..which rods are better at keeping a fish hooked up..that may be why some people build their own rods..do you think a very high frequency rod is going to be a better fish fighter than one that is lower maybe much lower..many of us have a fovorite rod that for some reason catches fish better than any of our other rods but we could never define why..could it be the rods frequency?

I would think rod frequency would affect casting distance, and accuracy. Rod power will determine hook set,. soft mouthed fish can have the hook ripped through thier mouths with too much power. Conversely, not enough power will not allow the hook oint to penetrate the mouth of other, hard mouthed species. How stiff the tip is also plays a role, as does action. Actions that force the rod to carry more load will result in better tippet protection, and allow the reel drag to do its job.

That poll that catches more of a target fish for you has the correct balance of power, stiffness, and action for the task.

Tight Lies and frisky fish

RJF

Ben: I suspect you are right about rod frequency being a valuable indicator of rod performance - and it has nothing to do with money, as far as I can tell. Beyond length and weight, blank makers and advertisers shun mention of the physical properties of their products, regardless of the price of their products. I suspect this is because there is little if any difference in documented dynamic performance between many rod blanks of all prices. I confess I have no idea what difference in Performance there is between a fly rod built on a $200 blank and one built on an $800 blank. Does this make me a cheapskate, a complainer - or a serious rod builder?

i guess what i,m suggesting/ asking is that if you know the frequency of your favorite rod that by duplicating this frequency you will have two favorite rods? any rod shorter or longer, heavier or lighter, stiffer or softer, faster or slower, made of a different material, etc.is not going to have the same frequency..

Phil, i think most consider ourselves as somewhat serious rod builders but if i built a rod on a $800 rod blank it would never see the light of day..lol. besides i would never get that serious..lol.

Robert, i had to sand the tip of an ugly stick to get the stiffness and taper i wanted..if i had a cheap device for measuring frequency and i knew the frequency i wanted, sanding would be simpler.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2021 09:52AM by ben belote.

Phil, instead of using the 'action' word,use the word 'taper'..it makes more sense.

ben belote Wrote:
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> Phil, instead of using the 'action' word,use the
> word 'taper'..it makes more sense.


The taper of a rod can be measured without deflecting the blank. Action cannot be measured without deflecting the blank. The two descriptions are not the same in rodbuilding accepted jargon.

i stand corrected..

Terry, do we not construct a certain taper to get a cetain action? they are the same just measured differently and described differently..the only reason that i see for using the word 'action' is to make rod building more baffleing to the none rod builder as if we know something you can,t ever know without our help (which you will need to pay for)..it,s called jargon and i have used it to fit in but actually jargon is an insult..



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2021 11:04AM by ben belote.

ben belote Wrote:
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> Terry, do we not construct a certain taper to get
> a cetain action? they are the same just measured
> differently and described differently.

Don't have an answer for that Ben, except to say that maybe taper is used to gain a weight advantage to the overall weight of the blank itself. I'm sure there are other reasons but not just to get action. A blank engineer could probably tell us more.about tapers and what they are designed for.

Taper is just one of multiple factors that determine action, so the two cannot be used interchangeably. Other factors include wall thickness, pattern design, fiber type, resin system, and so on. All that said, if you look at enough blank specs over a long enough period of time, you can check tip diameter, butt diameter, material, and weight, and get a fairly decent idea of what you're dealing with on those specs alone.

-The Batson TEAM
BatsonEnterprises.com