Phil Ewanicki Wrote:
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> The "rod tip speed" - no matter what the rod - is
> entirely the product of the caster, not the rod.
> Fly rods do not create energy, only transfer it,
> no matter who made the rod or how much it cost.
> The line can not travel any faster than the rod
> tip, unless you haul on the line. Besides, it's
> more satisfying to learn how to cast well than
> buying fly casting ability, even if this were
> possible - as advertisers $
If you say so :).... a graphite rod generates more tip speed than a glass one. Good rods store & transfer energy much better. And a well designed & built rod casts better than a cheap Walmart special.. But speed isn’t as important as timing & technique.. loading the rod, storing and releasing energy, transferring it to the line, etc etc.. as to how well you cast. Some of the best casters are small women. My wife included. Distance isn’t as important as accuracy & presentation.
The difference between fly casting and fly fishing.
but those are rudimentary fly casting fundamentals, that customers at my Orvis store, in Sarasota, learned in the first 30 minute fly casting workshop I used to teach twice a month. As do my 8-16 year old 4H kids in their fly fishing course at summer camp. They learn to cast pretty well in a half hour, because they listen.. Their parents take hours..:).

Thumbs up Greg!

Did you ever notice when you fly cast you release the line when the rod is at its greatest bend - BACKWARDS? How in blazes does the rod PUSH the line forward after you release the line? I confess, I can't figure that out.

Ewaniki can take any subject thread and twist into his, "you cannot push a rope" and "double hauling" comments regardless of whether it has any relevance to the subject matter!

maybe it pulls the line forward Phil..graphite uses a quick short stroke while glass uses a long slower stroke.. i like the way glass does it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/31/2021 05:48PM by ben belote.

ben belote Wrote:
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> maybe it pulls the line forward Phil..
There you go. :-)..
I watched Lefty Kreh cast 100’ once, without a rod! Sadly, we lost him a few years back.

Again, thanks so much for the input on these new fangled fiberglass sticks. I went ahead & ordered the NFC blank. This forum is a great resource for those of us afflicted with the rod building bug!

Greg: "Pulls the line forward?" Nah. A really good (expensive) rod stores energy and pushes the line forward after it leaves the tip-top, enabling anybody with an expensive rod to accurately cast at least 90 feet.

Hi all,
I've been lurking regarding this thread - thought I would add a couple of things:

basically - a fly rod is both a flexible lever and a spring. The resulting cast is 80% from the lever action - and the other 20% is from the spring function.
A haul on the forward cast simply increases the spring effect by causing the rod to flex a little more. It also imparts more energy to the fly line resulting in greater line speed.

The difference between a great fly blank (CTS) - and most of the others - is the blank's recovery rate. faster recovery rate = faster line speed.
There are some $1,000 fly rods that feel like dead-wood in the hand.
One of CTS' claim to fame is their RECOVERY RATE.

Herb
CTS Rep

Here is an interesting Physics piece re hauling:
[thecuriousflycaster.com]

Also - read this piece from a friend who knows of what he speaks:

The haul (double only means one is hauling on the the forward cast as well as the more common haul on the backcast) is an incredibly efficient means of accelerating flyline.

During the haul the bent/looped rod acts as a pulley, the line out back (on top) being pulled in and the hand/line pulling below in the opposite direction. Moreover, the rod/pulley is a MOVING pulley, which has huge implications. If you do the mechanics, fix a line to a stationary point, loop it around a pulley, and move the pulley forward the line speed will equal DOUBLE the pulley speed.

In the video of hand casting (link in the 10 wt rod loading thread) did you notice how he did the backcast? He looped the line over his finger and shoved the finger out back which very efficiently threw the whole line out back. Line speed = 2X pulley speed.


If there were no haul (and no real pulley effect), line speed equals the front edge of the rod speed PLUS the recoil/unloading effect of the tip, which is minor. Eventually, without haul, line speed = maximal tip speed.


With the haul, if the pulley was rigid and inflexible and the angles perfect, line speed would equal EXACTLY DOUBLE pulley ( front edge of the loaded rod = front edge of the pulley) speed. The tip unloading will contribute an even less unloading effect, but final line speed will equal much more than final tip speed.


In real life, the haul does a lot of things. First, the friction of the line in the guides provides some traction so that the initial forward pull helps accelerate the rod forward and over the top by the push/rotation of the rod hand AND the pull of the line hand. Two hands are stronger than one. Then, if the rod is not fully loaded, the haul will flex the rod further, adding to the efficiency of line acceleration and eventually there will (hopefully) be some pulley effect. If the rod IS fully loaded already, then the rod will respond more or less ridgidly (it is never totally rigid) and the pulley effect will more closely approach ideal.


Since the angles are dynamically changing and never ideal, the pulley never totally rigid, one never gets a perfect pulley effect. At some stage, the fact that the line hand is pulling on the line adds a potential for that line hand speed to be added to the pulley speed giving a third acceleration factor.

Understanding the above pulley effect dictates that line speed due to hauling will be maximized by 1) the loading (approaching complete rigidity) be maximum BEFORE the haul is initiated, 2) the pulley (rod "loop") being as FAR from the rod hand as one has the strength to accelerate it, and 3) the haul be initiated at the point of maximal rod speed. Again, in real life none of these things can happen perfectly. But clearly, the effect of hauling is going to be maximally efficient in a fast action rod with the longest distance to the pulley on the lever (tip action). Again, strength to do it a few times become the limiting factor....and in real fishing the need to do it 500 times in 8 hours dictates the need to moderate the forces somewhat.

But because of the pulley effect, a haul has the potential to turbo-boost line speed like nothing else in casting.


Peter.

Very interesting analysis of the mechanics of fly casting. Thanks for sharing.

I think the attraction of some to the glass blanks, is to slow things down a bit. I often make 20 casts without Double hauling at all. Working a shore line. Most of the time casting under 40’.
In casting for absolute maximum distance, it can be pretty tiring as he points out. I recall trying to get ahead of tarpon pods moving away from me with a big 12 weight rod, getting well into the backing.. and finally just being worn out. And I was a lot younger then.

This thread kind of morphed away from the original intent, but some good info from the folks here.

Fiberglass Flex Pics:

[www.rodbuilding.org]

[www.rodbuilding.org]

[www.rodbuilding.org]

[www.rodbuilding.org]

When you release the line during a cast is your rod bent backward or forward? Check and see, or watch anyone else cast. How in blazes can a rod bent backward provide energy to a line or lure going forward? I would welcome an explanation of this astonishing claim. Photographs would be nice.

Phil, I'm surprised at that question. The line has been cast backward and follows Newtonian rules of motion, in this case, paraphrasing here, any object at rest will maintain at rest unless acted upon by some force. Part 2 - an object at rest is in a state of potential energy. Part 3 - for every action, there is an opposite, and equal reaction.

Imagine standing with a bowling ball in one hand. As you move your arm you force the ball to change states from potential to kinetic energy. You can feel the forces resisting that change, if you are paying attention. In the same way, the back cast line, when it reaches the end of its travel, is forced again into a state of potential energy, if only for a very short time. The kinetic energy of the moving line is applied to the rod, which is a flexible lever. This energy causes the rod to bend backward as the tip is thrust forward by the caster. Again, the line wants to remain in the potential energy state, and resists changing states, until the rod applies enough force to force the change. As the flexible rod blank tip starts moving forward, it s motion is resisted by the line, causing it to bend in the opposite direction to its motion. That spring tension stores some of the energy applied by the caster. As the fly line begins to travel, it resists the forward motion less, and the rod unbends, relesing the stored energy, and straightening in the process.

As for the push/pull argument, as the rod tip moves, in either direction, the line curves around the tip top guide surface, so that the contact point between the guide surface, and line surface is pushing on the line, After the point of contact, the remainning line is pulled.

If this isn't clear, there are physics classes that are available at colleges, and universities.

Tight Lies and frisky fish

RJF

Robert,
Thanks and congratulations; your explanation was very understandable and saved me the tuition for classes at the local city college!!!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

When I fly cast I always release the line BEFORE the rod begins to unbend. In fact, I release the line when the rod is at its maximum backward bend (speed) behind me. If I wait for the rod to unbend and impart all its fabulous stored energy before I release it the line just flops to the ground at my feet. If I release a cast when the rod is bent fully BACKWARDS while it is moving forward I get the best results. When I see a stick pushing a string I'll revamp my casting style . . .

i have found that by using both hands on the handle that i can get a much stronger back cast which makes for a stronger shooting forward cast..

The speed a rod develops is entirely produced by the caster. There is no magic source of energy in a fish pole - or we would replace engines and motors with fish poles.

Phil Ewanicki Wrote:
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> The speed a rod develops is entirely produced by
> the caster. There is no magic source of energy in
> a fish pole - or we would replace engines and
> motors with fish poles.

You are correct. All of the energy is supplied by the caster. However, since the rod blank is a spring, it stores, and releases some of that supplied energy. If you wanted to get very technical, other forces come into play, i.e. fric6ion with the air, and guides, energy loss from heat dissipation, both from the friction, and bending the line, harmonic losses, the list goes on. Suffice it to say that the caster supplies the energy, and the rod blank transfers most of that energy to the fly line,, and ultimately to the fly., hopefully placing it where you want it. How soft, or hard the fly lands, and accuracy, and distance are determined by the caster's ability to use correct technique in casting. The same can be said for bait, and spin casting, albeit slightly different technique.

This discussion, I believe, is more about ego than it is about learning to be the best anglers, fisher-persons that we can be. I used to catch fish with a cheap UglyStick, a red & white bobber, and either live night-crawlers that we picked the night before, or shiners. Daredevils, and Little Cleo lures also worked for pike. I caught many a perch, and bass that way, along with pike, bullheads, rainbows, and brookies. This is supposed to be about enjoying the sport, not arguing about who understands the physics of the cast, and blank performance.

Tight Lies and frisky fish

RJF

thanks Robert but the physics is interesting..