With all due and deserved respect to Mr. Forhan, what actually “locks” the guide in place with the Forhan Locking Wrap? While additional wraps around the blank or guide leg may resist the guide from the dreaded “pull-out”, I fail to see how it actually “locks” the guide in place. What am I missing? I am here to learn.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Snake guides are particularly vulnerable to "backing out" from under guide wraps, and Forhan locking wraps do help prevent this. It's the epoxy, held in place by thread wraps, which does most of the holding.

I would suggest you try it rather than speculate. It works and it locks the guide in place just as stated, but try it for yourself. Wrap one and then attempt to pull it out, tear if off, etc. You won't be able to do it, but again, try it for yourself.

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Mark,
I don't know if this is the correct locking wrap, but this is the wrap that I use to lock a guide foot in place.

When I am wrapping a guide foot, I stop wrapping about 3 wraps short of the vertical part of the foot. At that point, I take the thread and form a loop around the base of the foot and continue on wrapping. Then, when I come around again, I take another wrap around the guide foot. Finally, on the 3rd wrap, I take a 3rd wrap around the guide foot. I follow this with 6 wraps past the guide foot to prevent the foot from sliding out from under the threads.

As they say out west, I throw a loop around the puppy, and then follow up with a triple wrap to hog tie that guide nice and tight.

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I agree with you on Mr. Forhan locking wrap with respect to its holding ability. I however, with the triple loop around the guide foot, followed by the jam wraps on the up rod side of the guide, never an issue with the guide pulling free from the guide wraps.

Take care

I found this video on the locking wrap.

[www.youtube.com]

If you like you can follow the video. This is essentially the locking wrap which I use to lock a guide in place.

As I pointed out in the previous post, it is the wraps around the vertical portion of the guide foot, that inhibit the guide foot from pulling out of the wrap - along with the blocking wrap in front of the guide foot that also assist in inhibiting the guide foot from escaping from the guide wrap.

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However, it was painful for me to watch this video of someone wrapping by hand. It has been so many years since I wrapped by hand that I had forgotten about the difficulty of not having goth hands free when doing this work.

Best wishes.

It's right here in photos in our library: [www.rodbuilding.org]

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[www.youtube.com]

Flex Coat Company
Professional Rod Building Supplies
www.flexcoat.com

The suggestion to try it both ways is right on. But just considering the logic of the wrapping of the thread around the eye of the guide a few times before doing the finish and pull through seems compelling to me. The thread is locked into place by the wrap epoxy, and since it is wrapped around the eye of the guide, the guide has to break the epoxy and the thread in order for the guide to pull out, so this is obviously more robust than just having a slim foot slide out under the wrap. Thread + epoxy is a lot like plywood. It is stronger than the sum of the strengths of the parts.

I appreciate the time most of you took in attempting to help me understand what actually “locks” the guide in place with the Forhan Locking (style) Wrap. Although I have never personally experienced a guide actually “pull-out”, it can obviously be of concern for others. It only seems logical and prudent that a competent rod builder take the extra step to, at least, minimize the possibility; most do, including myself.
Although graciously accepted and appreciated, none of the replies or videos explained precisely how those methods actually utilize the thread to “lock” the guide in place. While additional wraps around the blank or guide leg would certainly help to restrict pull-out, all but one left a relatively straight path for the guide foot to escape from the wrap. The only way to begin to “lock” the guide in place would require thread wraps up and around the guide leg on an angle > 0.05in above the top of the foot to avoid a straight path. While a thread wrap on the blank itself may provide a bit of a “stop”, at less than 0.010in, it would still leave a relatively straight path and certainly not “lock” the guide into position. Agreed, all of the above certainly help to secure the guide in place, have become an industry standard and widely accepted. Nonetheless, most do not provide an actual, positive “lock” against guide pull-out.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Rich Forhan developed his locking wrap due to the tendency of bass fishermen to pull guides out from under wraps when pulling rods into or out of the rod lockers on bass boats.

You can continue to theorize if you wish, or you can perform the actual Forhan wrap, then try to pull the guide out from under the wrap. You don't be able to do it, but I again suggest you simply try it. Be careful not to destroy your rod, which you may do.

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Mark, I use the Forhan locking wrap on all single foot guides! As Tom says, try it, you will NOY be able to pull the guide out. I have repaired numerous guide wraps without it, ....it works.

Maybe there is a better term than "lock'!

I am certainly not suggesting the Forhan Locking Wrap is ineffective or does not work. It is certainly, and rightfully so, a very trusted method and has a loyal following. Please do not attack me simply because I seek additional knowledge of how and why it works. I understand how to wrap it and have used it. Closer inspection has prompted my original question. I am simply inquiring as to where the “locking” aspect of the title comes into play. We are all (hopefully) here to learn.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Mark, us rod builders tend to be a bit intense.."locking" wrap sounds better than 'guide holding" wrap to us..lol.

Mark, no one is attacking anyone, just having a discussion in which there are different opinions. I submit that "The only way to begin to “lock” the guide in place would require thread wraps up and around the guide leg" is exactly what the Forhan wrap, and variations of it, do. I don't understand what the angle comment means.

One way to convince yourself of how it works would be to try it both ways without epoxy and see how ithe thread alone stabilizes the guide. When epoxy is added to the process it further reinforces the thread.

Mark,
Take a look at this video:

[www.youtube.com]

Now, imagine that the guide foot is the neck of that calf being roped. When the rope comes tight the calf stops moving.

With multiple loops of thread around the guide foot - the foot stops moving.

But, as you saw, if the rope missed the neck, or in our case the foot of the guide, the calf, or in our case the guide foot - kept moving.


Take care



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/2021 10:45AM by roger wilson.

Apparently then, the guide retaining properties of Mr. Fohan’s wrap is developed from a number of wraps around the leg / stem of the guide which is not inline with the foot (the “angle” thing I failed to describe adequately). That is all fine and dandy for a guide whose leg bends straight up from the foot but how can the Forhan be applied to a single-foot, light wire, fly guide where ends of the loop extend from the side of the foot at 90* to the left and right rather than straight up?

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Same way. Thread is flexible. It'll go around the stem of those guides even though the stem/s separate just off the foot.

You could always try a few of these wraps yourself on various guides and see what you think.

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Tom,
I understand how to wrap a Forhan, used it for a while and have used it on a number of different guides which is exactly why I was prompted to ask my questions. While the Forhan may have become the industry standard method of restricting guide pull-out as well as accepted and used by many, I will stick with my own locking wrap.
Thank you to all for your generous replies attempting to answer my questions. I am here to learn.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Mark,
You indicate that you have your own system for a locking wrap. Can you supply a video or offer an explanation of your method to inhibit a guide from moving out of a wrap?

Take care

you can ty a locking wrap on snake guides or any other wire guide but it is not a true forhan locking wrap which is meant for single foot guides with an upward one piece turning leg like the j-style or L shaped guides..i don,t think Rich was concerned with fly rod guides or even the K guides with their looping legs..