So, there has to be a better way of straightening guides. After I meticulously wrapped every guide perfectly, I stand back and admire my work and think to myself, I'm really getting somewhere now. Then I straighten the guides and for some, it causes a slight wrinkle, or it causes the threads to overlap just a hair at the foot, maybe scrunch up. If I used NCP thread or if I used Nylon thread with color preserver, it is barely noticeable, but something I need to work on. But if I use regular nylon thread, it is darker where the threads over lap and this becomes quite apparent as soon as you hit it with epoxy. How can I avoid this, aside form getting my guides perfectly aligned before I wrap them?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/23/2021 07:53AM by Fred Zimmermann.

Guides don't have to be perfectly straight when you wrap them, but they shouldn't be so far out of line that moving them into position causes any type of thread issue. I wonder if your thread tension might be either too much or too little. I'd also make sure your guide feet have a nice, shallow taper down to the rod blank. If they are blunt, then shifting a guide can cause some thread upset at the foot end to blank junction.

...............

I grind all my guides, and I have no problems wrapping them after I started doing that. The thread just climbs right up the foot with zero issues. However, it is fairly difficult to move them so it may be too tight. I have a homemade thread tension device and I can adjust a little. I've ordered a Flexcoat wrapper (the whole shbang) but it's been on back order for 6 weeks now but I'm hoping that will help my issues. I seem to go back and forth between what I think is the correct tension.

Fred,
To add to the comment by Mr. Kirkman.

Any more when I work on a rod, I first mark where the guides are going to be. Then, I use narrow masking tape to tape the guides in place. For very tiny - diameter - rod blanks, I will use ortho bands to secure the bands.

I will place a tip on the rod and mount a reel and then run line through the guides and tip top. I then hold the tip of the rod against the ceiling and under bright light, I will double check the placement of every guide as the rod is fully stressed to eye ball the flow of the line and to give one final check of each guide on the rod. If any guide is in the incorrect position on the rod blank, I correct it at that time.

Then, I will sight down the rod for a final check on the alignment of the guides on a side to side basis. All of this takes about 2 minutes. But, if I do find a guide that is in the incorrect position - exactly - fore and aft on the rod blank I correct it at that time.

My goal is to insure that every guides is perfectly placed with respect to the distance from the tip and or butt of the rod to insure a smooth line flow. I am also checking that each of the guides are correctly set at 0 degrees for a conventionally wrapped rod or at the correct number of degrees if the rod is being wrapped in a spiral fashion.

Under most conditions, this final check takes no more than a few minutes. However, if one or more guides is way out of position, I stop at that time to do all of the final corrections - if any are required.

My goal with this checking is to insure to myself that if any guide changes are required at all - it is no more than a few degrees in angular placement only. I try never to try to move a wrapped guide up and down the rod at all. If I find that I am out of placement in an up and down direction on the rod, I cut the thread wraps off the guide and start over on that guide.

I also wrap with significant tension such that it requires both thumbs to move a guide in a rotary direction. So, any changes if any are needed - I don't have any issues with thread movement, because the thread is so tight that is extremely difficult for any thread movement to occur, even if a few degrees of rotary correction are required.

Summary - if I do find that something has changed with respect to the thread wraps if I did have to make a minor adjustment - I simply cut the thread wraps and rewrap that guide.

After wrapping many many guides over many many years, I know that it only take me two or three minutes i - if that - to wrap a guide and I will not waste time trying to move a thread etc. if something has changed due to a guide correction.

Cut the guide off, rewrap with the guide in the correct starting position and move on.

It is a lot quicker to cut the guide off a blank rather than fooling around wasting time - trying to correct a self induced fault.

Best wishes.

roger wilson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fred,
> To add to the comment by Mr. Kirkman.
>
> Any more when I work on a rod, I first mark where
> the guides are going to be. Then, I use narrow
> masking tape to tape the guides in place. For
> very tiny - diameter - rod blanks, I will use
> ortho bands to secure the bands.
>
> I will place a tip on the rod and mount a reel and
> then run line through the guides and tip top. I
> then hold the tip of the rod against the ceiling
> and under bright light, I will double check the
> placement of every guide as the rod is fully
> stressed to eye ball the flow of the line and to
> give one final check of each guide on the rod. If
> any guide is in the incorrect position on the rod
> blank, I correct it at that time.
>
> Then, I will sight down the rod for a final check
> on the alignment of the guides on a side to side
> basis. All of this takes about 2 minutes. But,
> if I do find a guide that is in the incorrect
> position - exactly - fore and aft on the rod blank
> I correct it at that time.
>
> My goal is to insure that every guides is
> perfectly placed with respect to the distance from
> the tip and or butt of the rod to insure a smooth
> line flow. I am also checking that each of the
> guides are correctly set at 0 degrees for a
> conventionally wrapped rod or at the correct
> number of degrees if the rod is being wrapped in a
> spiral fashion.
>
> Under most conditions, this final check takes no
> more than a few minutes. However, if one or more
> guides is way out of position, I stop at that time
> to do all of the final corrections - if any are
> required.
>
> My goal with this checking is to insure to myself
> that if any guide changes are required at all - it
> is no more than a few degrees in angular placement
> only. I try never to try to move a wrapped guide
> up and down the rod at all. If I find that I am
> out of placement in an up and down direction on
> the rod, I cut the thread wraps off the guide and
> start over on that guide.
>
> I also wrap with significant tension such that it
> requires both thumbs to move a guide in a rotary
> direction. So, any changes if any are needed - I
> don't have any issues with thread movement,
> because the thread is so tight that is extremely
> difficult for any thread movement to occur, even
> if a few degrees of rotary correction are
> required.
>
> Summary - if I do find that something has changed
> with respect to the thread wraps if I did have to
> make a minor adjustment - I simply cut the thread
> wraps and rewrap that guide.
>
> After wrapping many many guides over many many
> years, I know that it only take me two or three
> minutes i - if that - to wrap a guide and I will
> not waste time trying to move a thread etc. if
> something has changed due to a guide correction.
>
>
> Cut the guide off, rewrap with the guide in the
> correct starting position and move on.
>
> It is a lot quicker to cut the guide off a blank
> rather than fooling around wasting time - trying
> to correct a self induced fault.
>
> Best wishes.

So, you are making sure before you begin, your guides are straight? I think that will work good for me once I get my wrapping machine, I'll be able to lock the rod in place on the rollers once the guides are straight, and with the Flexcoat machine, the rod is locked into position so the thread wrapper slides under everything so I don't bump the guides. Right now, with my set up, I tend to knock the tapped guides around before I wrap them. My set up basically @#$%& and I'm cussing all the time because I cant keep everything set.

I share with you my method not as a recommendation, nor a suggestion, but as food for thought.

I am the proverbial turtle and tend to do things slow and many times tedious.

This is how I do it:

I dress the guide feet to a gradual taper and de-burr the foot.

I have a reel foot section I removed from a scrapped spinning reel to use as an aiming devise. I place it in the reel seat of the rod to be wrapped.

The butt guide is positioned and held in place with tape, mini clothes pins or ortho bands and lined up with the reel foot “sight”. The guide is wrapped and the alignment to the reel foot is checked. This process is repeated until the last guide is positioned and wrapped.

Note: I remove the rod from the wrapper each time to check the alignment.

I make another check of the guide alignment and then apply CP.

After the CP sets a final alignment check is made and the tip is installed and aligned to the guide train.
.
The guide wraps are now ready for finish.

All my alignment checks are made by eye and when I am in doubt I ask whoever is around to check my work.

Its not as bad as it sounds.

Good luck
Have fun

Yes, get them as aligned as possible as you wrap, but as Tom said, they don't have to be perfect.. Eyesight is as good as any tool I've found, although eyesight with the cut off foot of a spin reel is better.

I think that if your wraps are wrinkling and overlapping then this indicates your tension is too low. Try higher tension.

With Fuji guides I rarely grind the feet. A few light wipes with sandpaper to give the foot a little "bite" is all I do. Grinding can cause other problems. If the guide feet are grossly fat at the ends, then grind away. Or get Fuji guides.

I'm pretty sure my tension is on the high side if anything. It takes some effort to move the guides and then they tend to jump instead of slide when I push them. I'm using AT Guides, the feet need to be ground. When I started grinding my feet, many problems went away. John, I like your method, and I am getting a lot of ideas to get a good system going. This is just another bump in the road that will be smoothed over with experience. In reality, I'm slitting hairs and no one seems to notice my tiny mistakes, but I do and it makes me strive for perfection.

"In reality, I'm slitting hairs and no one seems to notice my tiny mistakes, but I do and it makes me strive for perfection"


I'm sure they noticed but didn't say anything . I sold a rod that I was a little worried about due to a wrap showing a tiny gap in the thread a few years back , It was extremely minor and you would have to really look hard . I bet they noticed but thought it was fine because nobody ever said anything to me about it .

"I'm sure they noticed but didn't say anything . I sold a rod that I was a little worried about due to a wrap showing a tiny gap in the thread a few years back , It was extremely minor and you would have to really look hard . I bet they noticed but thought it was fine because nobody ever said anything to me about it ."

Even more the reason to get it right.

"Even more the reason to get it right"


Agreed , I wish I wasn't so critical of myself because in the past I would have a tendency to rewrap a rod I built for myself just because a wrap didn't look as good as it could . Even the most minor things would bother me but upon letting others inspect it they thought it was fantastic . I would point to a spot that I wasn't happy with and they would say "I don't see anything what are you talking about " .

I took apart a Lamiglas the other day for just that reason. I put black nylon thread on a black blank and I guess my eyes don't see like they use to and I have a really hard time laying down the epoxy. I went way too far out beyond the wraps ( I couldn't see where the thread stopped once I got just past it) and it just looked like slop. Its a Cadillac of a rod and the last thing I wanted was to show it to someone on the beach, it was just ugly. I'll be rebuilding it soon.

Fred,
When you wrap, do you use vision magnification?

If not, do yourself a favor and purchase the necessary items for 2x to 3x magnification for all of your work.

For years, I have used an inexpensive head band that contains a choice of several different magnification powers. I will typically use 2x magnification, but at times I will go to 3x magnification.

Also, if you do not have very very very bright illumination of your working area - especially right directly on the thread work purchase what is needed to make that happen.

For myself, I have bright lights in the work room, but in addition to that, I also use a 50 watt halogen swing arm light with the actual bulb about 10 inches from the guide that is being wrapped.

When I suggest BRIGHT illumination, I mean BRIGHT illumination.

--------------------------
There have been a lot of studies made on illumination levels for various tasks. When it comes to detail or microscopic work like rod wrapping, the necessary light levels to do the job well is right at the top of the charts.

--------------------
Consider this - Have you ever either been in a hospital operating room or had surgery yourself? If so, you will note that the spot lights that illuminate the operating area are intense. Also, you will note that the surgeons that do micro surgery use very powerful magnifying binoculars to perform their surgery. Remember, for many rod wrappers, who do intricate thread work, their work is not so much different than a nerve surgeon as he sorts out things in the head.

------------------
Check out the tables on this link that specify appropriate lighting levels for different rooms and different tasks.

[www.illumenate.com]

For example - a general display room or office suggests the use of 500 LUX.
But, to do "Detailed work" the illumination level increases to 2,000 LUX.

-------------------------------------
Best wishes and may you enjoy your time at your very brightly illuminated rod building bench with the ability to have a high level of magnification when you do your thread wrapping and thread finish work.

-----------------------
Also, I have no knowledge of any corrective eyewear that you may use. But, if you happen to wear eyewear that is multi correction, bifocals, trifocals or progressive lens - eyewear, consider the purchase of a pair of single vision eyewear that is calibrated to work with any magnification that you might use . i.e. go to your eye doctor - with the magnifier that you wish to use when wrapping. for example 2x or 3x magnification. Then, have the Dr. test and prescribe a pair of single vision glasses that will give you perfect vision at your typical focal length that you use when wrapping. For example, a wrapper, will typically be looking at a rod at a convenient length of somewhere on the order of 12-18 inches. If that is the case, then have the Dr. give you a pair of single vision eyewear that will give you perfect vision - when working with the eye ware and having 2x or 3x magnification in front of your eyewear.

Essentially, with the combination of your eyewear and your external magnification - you are creating a set of binoculars. You want the combination to be in focus at the correct distance from your eyes that you like to work.

Summary:
A lot of very bright light directed to your thread wrapping area - that is close enough to your work, so that your head and body will not create shadows in your working area.
A set of single vision eyewear and 2x to 3x magnification or greater if necessary to give you excellent enlarged vision of your guide and thread work.

With this setup you should be able to easily see individual threads and any spaces between the threads in your normal course of wrapping.

Best wishes and may you wrap well and for a long time.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2021 10:18AM by roger wilson.

roger wilson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fred,
> When you wrap, do you use vision magnification?
>
> If not, do yourself a favor and purchase the
> necessary items for 2x to 3x magnification for all
> of your work.
>

I wear 3x glasses for wrapping. I damaged my left eye a couple years ago in a really bizarre way, and it was my good eye so there's that. My problem with black on black is the glare the lights cause. Just can't see it, looks like a blob with no detail and a big reflection. I'm thinking the reason is because the glare is so bright, it makes the blacks dark because my eyes are reacting to the brightness. Kinda walking from bright outdoors into a dimly lit room. I'm coming up with a way to mount continuous softer lights above to help with it after I get my wrapper. I have a plan! Thank you, thank you all for the great advice. Sometimes I wouldn't know what to do without this forum.

Oh, so I wrapped another rod last night and instead of picking it up and looking down it and moving the guides into position, and repeating that until they were straight, I left it locked IN THE JIG and ran a a piece of mono through the guides and secured it so it was centered on either side above the rod. The line was touching the tops of all the guides and it was all too easy getting the guides dead straight. I didn't have any problems with the threads wrinkling or bunching up, and I think it was because I was moving them in a more secure manner. I think picking a rod up, looking down it and then twisting the guides in the manner I was doing it was the mistake. When the rod was in the jig, I just gently pushed them straight and it worked perfectly. In five minutes from start to finish, I was done. I was very happy.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/2021 11:31AM by Fred Zimmermann.

Fred,
As the saying goes, "Just one more small step for mankind."

Glad that you figured out a solution for your situation.

Take care

For serious fussers a laser beam will provide an absolutely straight line for guide placement. Little lasers are cheap these days.