While the following may be more geared to those new to rod building than the veterans, it may possibly contain information useful to all.
One of the first questions I posted after joining (some may say contaminating) rb.org was seeking what the “proper” thread tension should be while wrapping. While there are varying opinions and “proper” is a relative, subjective term to begin with, the replies received were vague if not few as well = understandable. So I simply experimented with different tensions while simultaneously experimenting with different types, styles and methods of thread wrapping during my infancy of rod building. After a few wraps went “boink” and unravelled, I decided a rather (relatively) higher thread tension would help lock tags better and so that was the approach taken. To compensate / overcome the tendency of the blank wanting to reverse itself under the higher thread tension, I simply started employing a “slip clutch” which is very adjustable and works beautifully = consider employing one if you don’t already, even for lower tensions!
While proceeding using relatively high thread tension during the next few years, I also noticed a fair number of (at least more than wanted) “nubs” in the first, thin coat of thread finish. It was not a big deal as after the initial, thin coat of epoxy cured, I simply shaved-off the nubs prior to the second coat. But I wanted to reduce (hopefully eliminate) the number of nubs. From the beginning, I was using the adjustable thread tensioners I fabricated which induce friction on the spools themselves rather than “pinching” the actual thread to eliminate disturbing the thread. Additionally and admittedly, my carriage employs a final SS eye which the thread(s) pass(es) through and may be a culprit as well. My first thought was the higher thread tension could be stressing the fibers themselves of the thread enough, causing them to break resulting in a nub. Although backing-off on the tension a bit certainly helped, maybe by only 30%, it was an improvement nonetheless. Backing-off the tension further to a risky, relatively low tension provided very little additional reduction of the nubs. So I have just come to accept there are going to be nubs in a thread wrap. Admittedly, I have limited experience with other thread brands than ProWrap, but with my fairly extensive stock of PW, I would hate to start all over (I am a cheap bastard).
During the months of experimenting with different tensions, I discovered other, unforeseen issues dependent on thread tension. First, higher tension will “flatten” the thread on the blank more, resulting in a wider width or fewer actual threads per inch. This may be insignificant for a single color wrap but is of huge concern when calculating the exact end point and / or the precise length of an equal-width, multi-colored wrap = different tension with the same number of rotations can be >0.060in different! Second, higher tension will reduce, hinder the effect burnishing will have on the final wrap; the thread is so tight and flat on the blank that it limits the amount of movement desired / required while burnishing.Third, higher tension will follow irregular contours easier, most importantly the scalloped / “barbed” sides of some guide feet resulting in loose-packed-loose-packed wraps over such guide feet. Fourth, higher tension will hinder the thread from initially climbing up the ramp of a guide foot unless precisely dressed.
While the above may seem to make too much tension the main evil, slack is equally yet inversely evil. Unfortunately, with the “proper” tension being relative and subjective, finding that right balance requires an open mind, logical thinking, compromise and experimentation of each individual builder. While I may still tend to typically employ heavier tension than others, I am aware of the difference and can adjust for a particular situation. An old saying says “anything in moderation is OK”. I think it is appropriate here as well.
We are all here to learn.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Mark

Good questions and analysis, I would expect nothing less from you. First of all, I like Fuji thread and mostly use A weight NOCP thread though I sometimes use the nylon as well. I find it to stretch well and have almost no nubs. As far as tension I employ my own opinionated feel for that day on that rod. I know the word "feel" strikes fear in the hearts of some, but I chose not to live scared and I dive right in to wrapping my rod. I don't want it too tight where it is a struggle to keep it tight and I don't want it so loose that it won't tie off or do the job of holding a guide. I guess that I am saying there is gray area in the thread tension debacle. I do think that it starts with a good quality thread and there are many out there I am sure. Fuji is my go to.

Flex Coat Company
Professional Rod Building Supplies
www.flexcoat.com

Similar to John's response.

I set the thread tension so that when the guide is wrapped, I can just barely move the guide using both thumbs to do so.

If I can move the guide with one finger after wrapping, it is too loose for me.

I do not want the guide so slip or move after being wrapped and coated.

Best wishes Mark and John.

John,
Thank you for your respected input.
I suppose I should have been more descriptive of the term “nub”. The nubs I get are not large but very small little imperfections, most of which would be concealed with the second coat of epoxy but, nonetheless, I prefer to shave them off just to be sure.
I did not really emphasize it but my Flex Coat Slip Clutch is invaluable to me. Not only can I adjust the thread tension, but the rotational tension of the blank as well. I do not know how many others employ one for wrapping, but I would be lost without it!!! I cannot imagine wrapping a rod without one!!!
While everyone has their own preferred brand of thread, I suppose some produce less fuzzies (nubs) than others. With my limited experience with other thread brands, I cannot really say ProWrap is good or bad; it is what I started with, have built-up a rather good inventory, and so that is what I use.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

isn,t getting fuzies or nubs an indication that the thread tension is too high?

Roger,
Thank you for your respected input as well. I think you have offered a very good “baseline” to describe the “proper tension”; if the guide can be moved “easily” after wrapping = too loose; if it requires quite a bit of effort = too tight. Very good = THANKS.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

"Nubs and fuzzies" are more an indication that something your thread is running through on the way to the guide isn't smooth.

.............

Ben,
Thank you for the input. As stated, I suspected such, but reducing the tension to “very low” reduced the fuzzies but did not eliminate them.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Tom,
Thank you for your input as well. Obviously, anything rough, let alone a burr, the thread is running through will create fuzzies. After inspecting just about every power wrapper and thread carriage known to man prior to designing and fabricating my own, I employed simple “SS screw-eyes” to direct the thread from the spool to the blank as did many of the commercial units available; and without giving it much thought at the time. I was intrigued with others who employed guides or tip tops with ceramic inserts, but felt the screw-eyes would be sufficient; I may possibly have been wrong.
In my original post, I stated the screw-eyes could be a culprit to the fuzzies as well as too much tension. I started thinking (oh, no) the thread (or fishing line) traveling in a straight path of eyes (guides) experiences very little friction until bent abruptly by the screw-eye (tip top). In addition to the increased friction, the abrupt bend torchures the filaments of the thread (line) as well.
So, I have decided to fabricate an “idler-pulley” in lieu of the final screw eye directing the thread onto the blank. Overkill? = possibly; will it reduce nubs and fuzzies = I certainly hope so. News at 11:00.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Mark,
My take on fuzzies on thread is simply an issue with the thread.

If you get fuzzies from any thread that uses what ever tension device and what ever - guide sort of your choice --- my take is that the thread is bad and it goes into the garbage.

Over the years, I have had 2 or 3 spools of thread that have caused the problem.

New spool of thread, using the identical tension device and setting and the same guide setting for directing the thread to the rod - no fuzzies.

-------------------------
Have fuzzies --
Throw away thread --

No more fuzzies from the thread in question.

--------------------------

I have also found that if there are fuzzies on the thread - it is on ALL of that particular spool of thread. No it did not make any difference if I stripped off 50 or 100 foot of thread - and the problem persisted.

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Also, unless one is using metallic thread - the only tension device that I have ever used is the spring loaded disk pair through which thread runs. If this system works for the billions of sewing machines that are used every day throughout the world with no thread issues, it is good enough for me to wrap a few hundred fishing rods.

However, metallic thread is a different animal - no tension disks for metallic thread. I only use metallic thread for trim wraps, so, I simply nip off a few feet of line for the trim work and hold tension on the thread by the use of my fingers, hands and arms.

No issues with the metallic thread if I maintain the tension with my fingers -- wash your hands well with soap, if you are going to use your fingers for maintaining thread tension.

Mark, I enjoyed the read. Very well put.

Roger,
I am certainly in no position to argue that the biggest culprit of my fuzzies could actually be a particular spool of thread itself. Without one spool being isolated and noticeably “fuzzier” than another as you suggested, I can only assume there is another cause of my dreaded fuzzies. It may just be the ProWrap itself in general = I do not know. Hopefully, my fabrication of a “friction-free” thread delivery device will solve the dilemma and precisely point to the root of the problem. As previously said, news at 11:00.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Mark,
I appreciate your comment = thanks.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

[www.rodbuilding.org]

[www.rodbuilding.org]

The links posted above illustrate the thread feed for all of my wrapping.

If one looks at the 2nd link - this is a simple stand for large lb. spools of thread. I use a stand that is similar to the stands that I use on my commercial sewing machine.

i.e. the thread pulls off the top of the spool, goes through a loop in the coat hanger used to form the thread supports, then, down to a support that is at the same level as I use for my smaller spools of thread.

In the first picture is a thread stand that I have used from the first rod that I built many years ago. The thread comes off the spool (when using a small spool, or from the large spool thread stand ) to a ceramic guide on the bottom of the tension stand. Then, the thread flow up the tension board to the tension device. Now, up to this point - there has effectively been negligible tension on the thread at any point.

The thread is passed through a pair of tension disks which are plated steel that has been well polished to be free of any spots that could grab the thread. Then, from the tension disks - straight to the guide being wrapped.

-----------------------
So, when you speak of guides or wire loops causing thread issues because the thread is under tension when passing through the guides or loops on your setup - this is a mute point with the setup that is used in the pictures because there is no significant tension on the thread while it flows through the guides and loops on the device shown in the first and 2nd pictures.

If there is an issue with tension causing a thread issue, it can happen in only one spot on the link in the first picture. i.e. the thread passing through the polished steel tension disks.

------------------------------
As I said initially - the thread feed setup that I use does not work for metallic thread so I don't use the tension device for metallic thread and the builds come out fine.

Best wishes

deleted



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/18/2021 04:34PM by John Ricks.

Roger

Good point about the metallic thread, however, we have introduced teflon washers on our tension devices that solve this problem. I will send you some. You simply install 2 of them between the chromed discs where the thread runs, letting the metallic thread run through them and then no more problem with metallic thread.

Flex Coat Company
Professional Rod Building Supplies
www.flexcoat.com

Thanks to John Ricks as well.
Roger,
I think you understand my point regarding “bending” the thread in a sharp radius possibly being the cause of fuzzies. More importantly, tension on the thread while being bent (as you mentioned) compounds the problem. Your rig affords a straight path from the tensioner to the blank = good. Mine uses a screw-eye which bends the thread ~135* between the tensioner / spool and the blank = possibly not so good. I like the position of the spools and the tension method on my carriage and do not want to redesign it. So I will fabricate an idler pulley to replace the final screw-eye. [www.rodbuilding.org]
Again, the nubs / fuzzies I experience are not large but rather quite tiny but I am very picky. I prefer an extremely thin coat of epoxy on the wraps of my ULs and eliminating (if it is actually possible) any fuzzies may improve the appearance of that first coat.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

You are unlikely to bend the thread around any radius sharper than a small diameter rod blank. If the radius is the cause of "fuzzies," then all rods would sport them.

.................

Tom,
You are obviously correct and I agree. However, I was referring to sharply bending the thread around a screw-eye, and additionally under tension, prior to being wrapped around the blank itself.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

The thread is under tension as it is wrapped around the blank. So same thing.

Tension nor bending radius isn't causing your fuzzies.

..............