This was also posted a couple of months ago.
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Norm

A Clove hitch and a nail knot are virtually identical for less than 4 wraps.

Thanks, Norman. I am certain Norman and I employ the same method, although we wrap in opposite directions (which is of no ultimate consequence). So there you have it; a respected veteran and an apprentice relying on the same method for trim wraps; it only seems logical it will serve everyone else in between as well.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

The nail knot, really a clove hitch, is fast, easy and can be made after the main wrap is complete. I think most builders make the main wrap and then do the trims. But what do I know? In the meantime I'll stick with the clove hitch. It has worked well for me for 25 years.

I would have never guessed that most people do the wrap first then do the trim afterwards with a clove hitch/nail knot. I’ve been wrapping rods for 52 yrs, and have always done the trim as I described, I find it logical, quick, easy and looks good. Because of this I thought most people did the trim first in conjunction with the main wrap. I have a few pictures of my process that I have sent to both Tom and Mark. I will try and post them when I have some time.
Norm

Mike,
My only question is what is there to be gained by making two separate wraps rather than simply one continuous wrap?

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Here are some photos showing the sequence for the way I do my trim wrap. I start the trim wrap just like any other wrap, and count the number of turns I make. In this case it’s a 3 turn trim wrap, so I turn the blank 3 1/2 times.
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I then bringing the main wrap thread in between the trim wrap and the trim thread, make one turn to catch the trim thread and to start the main wrap. I put my thumb on the crossover point and cut the trim thread.
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I then continue the main wrap for a few more turns, I then unwind the second trim tag backs 1/2 turn to the first tag end, and trim all the tags. I now have an exact three turn trim band. I continue to wrap the rest of the guide. If you want a narrower or wider trim band just do less or more turns. You can also unwinded the trim tag end under the main wrap to get a trim wrap as narrow as a one thread trim band.
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If you want to do a trim inlay or olive branch a little further into the wrap, just cut the trim tag extra long, and wrap over it until you get to the point where you want the inlay. The take the trim tag and make the number of turns you want, and then tuck it under the main thread and cut the tag, and finish wrapping.
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If you want a trim band at the end of the wrap, you will need two tie off loops. One for the main wrap thread and the second for the trim tag. Tie off the main wrap, then wrap the trim tag around the blank for the number of turns desired and then use the second loop to tie it off.
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For me it’s fast and easy and gives the versatility for doing an inlay.
Norm

I always do my trim wraps first. I thought everybody did them this way. Then the clove hitch which takes all of 10 seconds to do. And then if you ever need to replace a guide, you do not have to remove the trim wrap. Just the main wrap, re-wrap and epoxy over both. What others do is up to them but I find this the fastest and easiest way.

The same is true for my trim wrap. If replacing a guide, the trim wrap stays in place, just remove the main wrap. You are correct in saying to each their own, it’s a matter of what’s most comfortable for you. In many cases there are different methods for doing the same thing. The way I do it is just an alternative method that I find extremely easy, fast and versatile.
Norm

Mike,
Thank you for the reply. I had not thought of only having to rewrap the main wrap when replacing a guide if the trim and main wraps were separate. However, I would think one would spend more time trying to save the trim by having to be so careful removing the main wrap than to simply remove all, if it only “takes all of 10 seconds to do”.
Rod building incorporates numerous methods and materials available for each individual builder to choose which performs best for THEM. This can only be definitely decided after trying / testing each and all. Although I rarely have a need to employ the nail knot method, I learned and know how to use it. It immediately became obvious it was inferior to the Adding and Dropping (A&DT) method in every aspect; ease, time, security and precision. I suspect there may be those who continue to use the nail knot method for trims who never try employing A&DT.
As Norman, I am equally surprised to learn so many builders use the nail knot / clove hitch to produce a separate trim from the main wrap, but to-each-his-own. Granted it can be difficult to change something one is comfortable with and the longer one has been doing it = the more difficult yet. But those having a receptive and open mind will benefit the most. TRY IT, YOU’LL LIKE IT!!!
I would be extremely receptive and anxious to learn ANY aspect of A&DT (as Norman and I have described) which people do not like or are uncomfortable with. I am here to learn.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

The method/s identical to what Mark and Norman have presented here were detailed in the Volume 18 #2 and Volume 19 #2 issues of RodMaker. For those that have those issues from a few years back you may find it helpful to go over those methods again. Although they detail specifically how to make single thread trim bands, the same method will yield any number of thread width inlays you desire.

.................

Mark, since you asked for my thoughts here you go.

I don't normally use the nail knot method. I do agree that thread wraps should be planned. However there are occasions, such as "improving" something" A little extra embellishment can make a big difference in some cases. If you want that to be under the middle of a double foot guide, after the fact, there aren't many alternatives.

First, I think everyone should get in the habit of saying what they fish for where. I think there is a great deal of difference in how I would wrap an UL freshwater spinning rod and a XH saltwater conventional rod. Fly rods are generally wrapped in an "understated" manner. Mark, you and I I seem to be in the minority in that we each fish such extremes. We really do need to get you into fly rods though:)

I tend more towards the medium power saltwater rods and I don't build for money/as a business. So what I do may be a good bit different than some others. Also, my dad built rods so I'm influenced by what he did back in the 1960's.

My typical build will use double foot guides with an under wrap (although I am moving away from that for spinning rods under 20# class). Keep in mind what I call 15# class many would be using 65# braid on:).

I'll measure my smallest double foot guide and decide how many wraps my trim band should be. If it is five wraps or more, I'll start each wrap as an individual wrap and put in a pull string to terminate that wrap and introduce the next color. I'll typically use three different colors on the under wrap. I can start my trim band, go a couple of turns, put a pull loop, terminate that color and pull in the next one.

If my smallest trim band is less than five turns I'll tuck a thread under a wrap, tape it down to the blank, and "back wrap it". I might need to put in a pull loop when I introduce that thread. If I only want a turn or two I'll tuck the thread in, tape it down, cross over it with main thread, and unwind as needed (but that is more about an "inlay" in the middle of a warp). Ill trust you understand what I mean here without going into details. While I didn't read your previous thread I'm pretty sure you, I, and Norman (and many others) are doing these things the same way at this point.

I think the main difference comes in with regards to the type and power of rods each of us are building. I mean do you wrap your So. Cali, long trip offshore rods, with the same technique as your high country trout rods? If so color me surprised!

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

First of all, I would like to sincerely apologize to Michael for stepping on his topic; but I just couldn’t help myself. I hope to have not offended you.
Russell,
Thank you for the reply. I am confident I understand your description of the method you use for trim bands. But it is different from the (A&DT) method Norman and I have been describing = there is no need for pull-through loops with A&DT. Whether adding (starting) or dropping (ending) threads, the continuing (running) thread is simply employed to hold and lock the tags securely under it for a few rotations, roughly trim the tags, and continue wrapping over them to conceal. Basically, the only pull-through loop I use is for the final, ending tie-off.
How someone is influenced or the method they are comfortable with (used to) can certainly be a huge hurdle to overcome.
Regarding your comment at the end of your post, “I think the main difference comes in with regards to the type and power of rods each of us are building. I mean do you wrap your So. Cali, long trip offshore rods, with the same technique as your high country trout rods? If so color me surprised!” WHAT COLOR DO YOU PREFER? Lol While the majority of my freshwater trout rod wraps tend to use more muted colors so as not to spook finicky trout, my saltwater rods tend to be more brightly colored. In either case, there may be as many as 8 color changes within each wrap whether it be an underwrap or overwrap. The only difference is that size A thread is used for freshwater and D for saltwater (except underwraps = A). There is absolutely no reason to change the technique or method of wrapping = A&DT is universal.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Correct Mark. If my individual wraps can be wide enough I don't bother with the A&DT method.

If your fresh water trout rods have 8 different colors in the wraps you are simply going to have to comply as resistance is futile and you will be assimilated. It would be best if you don't admit to such conspicuous excessive behavior on a public forum. Otherwise you may receive a visit (from the Borg) and be forced into compliance.

I think there is a difference between a trim band and an inlay. Semantics perhaps, but to me trim bands are at the ends of a the wrap.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

No problem , Mark. Different strokes for different folks. I personally prefer to use the nail knot, especially if I have two or more colors of trim bands. I don't like having all the threads in action at one time and having to manipulate them. The nail knot separates the action into "modules" that I can manage better.

I don't even attempt most of the fancy, but beautiful, wraps I see on the forums. I just don't have the patience and am more interested in function and simple, classic, beauty.

I'm an instructor where I work, so I completely understand how difficult it can be to describe a way of doing something that you've done hundreds, if not thousands of times, to a person that has never done it before. It can definitely be a "patience is a virtue" kind of thing. I commend those of you that have taken the time to explain their method. I see parts of my method for doing trim bands scattered throughout the other explanations, so I'll join the party and try and explain the way I do trim bands. It's something I picked up watching a YouTube video.

I cut a length of the thread I am using for the trim band, and lay it along the length of the blank, taping it at both ends. I start my main wrap over the trim band thread, leaving enough of the trim band thread sticking out past the main wrap, to complete the amount of turns I want the trim wrap to be. Of course the diameter of the blank and the number of wraps I want the trim band to be, are going to determine how much trim band thread I need to work with. I put a pull through under the start of the main wrap. Since I wrap with pretty high thread tension, and I use metallic thread for my trim bands, I only do about 6 wraps of the main wrap before I start my trim band. I wrap the trim band by hand around the blank. Slip the end through my pull through, pull it through, and trim that tag end.

If I am doing an inlay in the middle of the wrap that is going to be the same color as the trim band, I continue wrapping over the remaining trim thread that I had taped along the blank. If I want the inlay to be a different color than the trim band, I will tape both color threads along the blank before I start my main wrap.

Hopefully I've made sense in my explanation. It works quite nicely, At least it does for me.

Oh and I definitely like the idea of using Perma Gloss as a bonding agent for the nail knot method. I'm going to have to try that one for sure.

Russell,
Personally, I prefer simple subtle wraps over the more flamboyant examples of thread art. Most of my wraps only involve 2 colors; a trim band on either side of the main wrap with an inlay or olive branch (JTOB), usually the same color as the trims, in the middle. It is the “color fades” (explained in the link above) which can require as many as 8 color changes to go from dark-to-light-and-back-to-dark. They are still rather subtle yet produce a distinctive effect. My fades are reserved for special builds and / or for customers willing and able to pay for them; each guide wrap can require an hour or more! I am unfamiliar with what “the Borg” is but it may be a blessing I do not know.
Michael,
Thankfully, I did not offend you. You made a valid point; “I don't like having all the threads in action at one time and having to manipulate them.” While there can be 3 loose tags for a few rotations possibly causing some confusion, after a few wraps, it becomes second-nature and one doesn’t even think about it.
David,
Your employer has a good instructor = I understood your description very well and am familiar with the method. While it could even be used to produce a single-thread trim band, the need to employ a pull-through loop would be difficult to precisely align the ends. I am glad you are willing to try something different such as the PG method; why not A&DT?
Norman,
It appears you and I may be attempting to fight a losing battle.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.