Dear sir,
I have read as much as I can find on the KR system setup, rod templates and guide pairings etc.
I am presently building a special purpose KR system, micro guide, 10', spinning rod.
I think I understand guide size and basic placement.
I have measured my 2500 size reel spool and multiplied this by 27 to calculate the choke guide location.

Option A.
Most information I have found says to run a line (straight edge) from the top tip of the spool spindle (shaft) to the choke point on the rod. (EG. 27 x Spool Diameter).
Then line up the stripper guide and the other 2 reduction guides between this line and the blank. The guides size selection mostly to dictate the location on the blank of each of these guides.
In practice this pushes the line down by half a spool at the stripper guide instead of forming a straight line of coils from the spool aimed at the choke point guide?

Option B.
So I think option A is wrong, as it would appear to cause increased friction and irregular line coils at the stripper guide.
Alternatively should the Stripper, 2nd and 3rd reduction guides be centered between the spool and choke guide to form an isosceles triangle pointed at the choke guide, albeit at a slightly steeper angle to the rod blank.

Which option do you consider best and why please?

Yours sincerely

Colin Banks.

Colin,


I dont use the table-edge method, especially not on rods as long as you have mentioned - you pull the whole reduction guide set up too close to the reel when using high framed guides like the KL-H

Most will set it up to create a bullseye as per your option B.

I have my own way based on doing it hundreds of times that is similar to the Option B, but is tweaked based on rod length and spes, reel, braid butt to reel distance etc

1. What blank are you building on?
2. What 2500 reel is it, some are bigger than others regardless of the seemingly identical sizing - a 2500 Daiwa LT type reel is smaller than a non LT Daiwa (a BG as an example) Spool dia in mm?
3. What braid do do you use (brand and breaking strain)
3. Your butt to reel spacing?

What size stripper guide (an indeed complete reduction train) were you thinking of using?

Brandon

Have you tried the KR software for use with KLH guides on the Anglersresource.net site? Using KLH reduction guides, right?

Colin,
I am from the school that believes the length of a spinning blank has no influence on the reduction guide size and/or spacing. Guide size is determined by the size of the reel (spool), the up-sweep angle of the reel, and the size of the braid. A longer blank will simply use more runners while a shorter blank will use fewer; an extremely short blank may put the choke-point at or very close to the tip! Nonetheless, the reduction guide train remains the same.
Without knowing the size of the braid you plan on using or the type of fishing planned, most 2500 reels work well with a KL-20H, KL-10H, KL-5.5M followed by your preferred size of KB as the choke point with one or two more KBs followed by KTs out to the tip top. Personally, I use as many KBs as the diameter of the blank allows. With such a long blank, there are those who will employ a 4-guide reduction train; 20H, 10H, 7M, 5.5L. If using 30-50lb braid, step it up one size; 25h 12h, 5.5M. Place the butt guide 19-21in from the spool face and the choke guide ~22in from the butt guide and space the other reduction guide(s) to produce a bullseye. Perform a 2-line static load test for the placement of the runners (while checking the line path through the reduction guides as well), wrap it and fish it.
The GPS from Anglers Resource, as Michael Danek mentioned, is very helpful.
Hopefully, Norman Miller will reply as well = he is the real KR Guru.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Agree with Mark, length of the rod has little or no influence on the reduction train design. I see no reason for anything more than 3 reduction guides. I've done a couple rods with 2 and they work fine. Maybe got lucky.

Colin , I hate to do this to you, but read this: ( you might want to read all the pages in the post) [www.rodbuilding.org]

Colin, Mark T is correct as is Norman's post about the progressive (or non progressive) spacing. The sizes Mark has suggested will get you to that progressive spacing.

Thank you all for your input.
Much appreciated.

The rod blank is a 10' 7/8 Weight Switch Rod Blank. Japanese Toray Carbon, Nano resin. 11.7mm Butt, 1.5mm tip, weight 80 Grams.
The reel is a Shimano 2500 Sahara with Suffix 832 10Lb Braid.
Rod butt to reel face 13".
Intended use is for egg drifting in the Hydro Canals of the South Island of NZ for huge trout. NB: 30Lb is fairly common.
The reel spool diam is 42.8mm x 27 + 1155mm diameter reel face to choke guide.

I have completed one rod based on the Fuji KR Software with suggested a train of 16H, 8H, 5.5M followed then GB4.5 and KT4.5 guides at the tip end.
I used the table edge method for the reduction train spacing so the build varied from software spacing. In total I used 13 guides plus a tip tip.
This rod out cast any of my existing spin sticks by 20' at least on average..

Now I am building another and thought that I could even improve on my previous effort.
To plan I drew out a paper template to actual size (clearly too much time on my hands in Covid ,lock down) based on my choke location and reel height.
To this I measured and drew in all the relevant KL etc. sized guides to see where they would sit.
From this, I came up with my preferred guide spacing's and sizes.

After all that I came across a Fuji template that paired recommended guides together and to my surprise it matched my template nearly exactly.
I have purchased and assembled 13 guides again, being this time a 20H, 10H, 6M, 5.5L, then 5 x KB4.5 belly guides and 4 x KT4.5 tip guides.
Following everyone's kind advice I have built this latest rod based on the bullseye method and fixed the guides with rubber bands only to the blank spine so far.
The static load test was great, basically no change required.
Next I will take both rods to the park for a live casting comparison before binding, varnishing and completion.
Of course it may be that subtle changes won't make a noticeable difference in actual use.
However this will be an interesting test and comparison anyway to me.

Cheers

Colin.

Sounds like you're doing fine. I would eliminate the 6M, but that is just what I would do; you seem to be doing well on your own.

I agree that there is no need for the 6M. FYI: "Nano Resin" is a term used to sell rods / blanks and is useless as an enhancement to performance or longevity, because the nano powder they add to the resin may actually weaken the strength and elasticity of it. You are definitely on the right track.

For building spinning rods these days, many folks including myself have implemented a 2 or 3 guide reduction system with running guides to the tip.

Gone are the days of many different guide sizes being used on a fishing rod.

Often, for casting rods there may only be one stripper guide and running guides to the tip. For a spinning rod, 2 or perhaps 3 reduction guides and spinning guides to the tip.

If mono is involved - I will generally use a Match guide for height for the stripper on a spinning rod to avoid line slap. If no mono - but only braid, the match guide height is not necessary.

Enjoy the vocation and build the rods to catch the fish of a long gone dream.

Best wishes.

It doesn’t seem like I have much to add to this discussion. You have done a lot of work and testing to figure out your guide train, and it appears that you have done a very good job, since you are very happy with rod performance. However, I will state there is a lot of flexibility involved in laying out a KR concept guide train. Longer rods with smaller reels present a dilemma of either moving the choke point further out or adding more guides. Some people will keep the choke point (reduction train length) relatively constant no matter the length of the rod, and just add more guides for a longer rod. In my opinion, doing it this way works, but does make it hard to get good progressive guide spacing. For example, the spacing between the reduction guides becomes very tight, and in many cases the distance between these guides is less than the distances between some of the running guides. On the other hand, if using the KR GPS, the choke guide position moves further out with increasing rod length and thus the reduction train gets longer, and fewer runners are needed to get good progressive guide spacing. This also works. In your case, your reduction train length is about 65 cm (~25.5”). For your rod data, the KR GPS gives a reduction train length of about 91 cm (36”), which I think is a little to long. For longer, rods I compromise by moving the choke point a little further out to accommodate the progressive spacing I like, but still using enough guides to give a good static test. I have built a number of 10’ light to medium heavy spinning rods using salmon/steelhead, and switch blanks, using1000 to 4000 size reels loaded with braid. The reduction train length for these rods vary from about 72cm to 84cm (about 28” to 32”), and I will use from 12 to 13 guides total depending on the action of the blanks used. For your rod, I would probably use 13 guides, with a reduction train length of about 75 cm (29.5”) as a starting point. I have no idea how it might compare to the spacing you are using. Might be worth it to give both a try so you can compare. Probably won’t make a lot of difference. I think your selection of reduction guides is just fine, I do like a 20H based reduction train for the reel you are using, it will give you a little more versatility. Just remember, the KL5.5L will be used as your choke guide, otherwise the the spacing within the reduction train will be very tight.
Norm

One thing that you should know is that it's very very difficult to pick out nuances in guide train performance when using light braid and the reason is super light braid will work very very well even with poorly laid out reduction train guides . It is for this reason that I like to spool up with line a little heavier than what I plan on using to tweak the guide train for the truly best possible performance. Heavier line on a layout built with lighter braid in mind will reveal & amplify guide train imperfections a lot more readily then trying to tweak a layout with 10 pound 832 . If you can get outstanding performance with a guide train using slightly heavier line to test and tweak then you're really about to experience amazing things when you spool back to the lighter braid. My comment is meant to be general in nature since the OP seems to be very satisfied with how everything's going.

Enjoy

PS: I just spooled up one of my surf fishing reels with 300 yards of 10 pound 832 last night . Good stuff

my light spin rods are even lighter because i don,t use a reduction train at all..by using 10# or lighter braid i can use all running guides and a #8y guide on the butt..makes for a more sesitive rod also..my running guides are usually #5s

Colin,
You have apparently done your homework, are approaching this build methodically, and yet still ask questions = the sign of a true craftsman.
You have been blessed with Norman’s input and expertise concerning KR setups. I learned two things from his post; in this (your) case, use the 5.5L as the choke guide and move the choke guide out a bit to accommodate progressive spacing throughout the blank = thanks Norman. Although Anglers Resource suggests a 4-guide reduction train for “...rods that bend deep into the bottom section and/or rods over 9ft”, I agree with those above and prefer a 3-guide affair. If you use the 4-guide, 20H based reduction train, consider using the suggested 6L rather than the 6M you stated (which is for the 16H based train). By the way, I think it is a wise choice of yours to use the 20H based train. While the 16H train would certainly work with 10lb braid, the 20H setup will be more versatile if you ever decide to use a larger reel or braid yet will be just fine for a 2500 spooled with 10lb braid. Good luck and keep us informed how it turns out.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Hi all,
This will be my last post on the subject of reduction train alignment since the issue for me has now been successfully resolved in my mind as the last real hurdle I had, thanks to all your really helpful suggestions.

The input from everyone has been paramount in finalizing the concept for me and bringing the pieces of the concept together which has taken several months to do.
Unfortunately, I had already purchased and received the guides, so I was unable to try some of the sizes kindly suggested although the 13 guides suggested worked for me. Alternative size Fuji SiC guides are not that cheap to not use or discard the ones I have.

I have been to the park for a casting test now and can confirm that the bullseye alignment of the reduction train over the table edge method of my previous rod has translated to a small but consistent distance improvement between the 2 spinning rods of about 10 feet in distance. I have found over this road to discovery for me that the KR Concept information has been somewhat fragmented or at least up to interpretation, where I like more of a complete A-Z exact formula approach.

What have a learned?– When building a rod incremental and proportionate I think are key words.
The KR concept Guide chart for spinning rods was a good start. From this I converted the distances between guides to metric to help understand the incremental increases from the tip. I found that in metric it was clearer that between guides about 5mm was being added per guide space. So marking the blank with this spacing was a good start.
Then moving to the reduction train….. the spool x 27 gave me 25 1/2 inches from the spool face to the choker guide and worked for me. As a rough check of this location a straight edge can be put alongside the reel spindle to confirm the reel angle convergence at the proposed choke guide location. I have found this location to be non-critical whether it is plus or minus a few inches. So, I moved the choke guide location, slightly further out to match the pre-marked closest guide incremental increase location.

To achieve the Bullseye Method – Next I taped a piece of braid to the top and bottom of the spool and threaded on my 20H stripper guide. I then ran the 2 braid string lines trough the stripper guide, pulled taut and taped them to the blank. This gave me a bullseye with an apex at the inside bottom of the stripper guide. This allows for some smoothing out of the sharpness of the angle to the blank belly running guides. I also found the Anglers Resource Guide height comparison chart useful in being able to pre-visualize where different height guides would sit within this bullseye guideline before purchasing them.

Now sliding the chosen size (20H) stripper guide up and down the braid straight edges you can locate the exact position where the inside top and inside bottom edge of the guide is centered. I marked the location on the blank and repeated for reduction guide #2 & 3. I found the stripper guide location to be not that critical rather more so the alignment within the bulls eye

I also came across another 3-page source document helpful called the Infinite Reality K-R Concept, this document introduced 9 new size guide’s and provided a chart of matching guide sets. From this I also adopted into my build the 3 choking guides + high profile belly guide specification. This further evens out the sharpness of the direction change from reduction train to running belly guides.

In practice I found that there were only nominal performance differences in using a 16H, 8H & 5.5M – compared to a 20H, 10H, 6M, etc., apart from the 20H train obviously moving the guides closer to the reel. When looking at the Fuji recommended pairings it makes sense to me to be proportionate in that a reel diameter of some 40+mm to a 20H, 10H guide etc., makes some sense. The main difference being the bullseye method improvement over table edge method for aligning the reduction train. Further from this Infinite Reality K-R Concept document I swapped out the first KB4.5 choke guide for a 5L to further smooth out the transition to the next KB4.5 running guide in the final build.

Some months later, after much research, guidance from others, my best efforts, perhaps a lot of luck, quality components......2 x 10' IM12 fast action spinning rods with Fuji micro SiC slim ring guides, Fuji TVS reel seats with carbon inserts and over AUD $1000 spent, I am over the moon and proud of the result.

Cheers All.

Colin.

The question is directed specifically to guide trains on rods casting braided line. Good information. With monofilament the stiffness and size of loops coming off the reel vary considerably with change in the ambient temperature. For best performance the guide train size and spacing on rods casting monofilament lines must be tuned to the ambient temperature of the water they fish, since mono suppleness varies considerably with the temperature of the water and air. Ambient temperature has little effect on the flexibility of braided line - above 32 degrees F. The question specifies only one make and model of guides. Would advice here apply to any other makes and models of guides?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/31/2021 09:55AM by Phil Ewanicki.

Colin,
It is indeed refreshing to have someone ask questions, receive helpful replies and then thank those replying. You have approached this build extremely methodically and I am certain it will perform beautifully. Just don’t slam the tailgate on it!!! lol.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.