Howdy folks,

I apologize if this question has been asked and answered already, but I've not been able to find it on here or with a Google search.
I'm very new to rod building. I have heard multiple people say that using color preserver on the thread will make the thread wrap weaker or not bond quite as well, which makes perfect sense. My question is if colorfast or factory color preserved thread will yield the same results? I'm curious if the fact that the threads aren't stuck to each other like they would be after applying CP at the bench, that it will allow the epoxy to soak in better?
Can anyone shed any light on this for me?

Thanks!
Travis Sheeder

First off,
The thread holds the guide to the blank, the holding strength is in the thread wrap, does not matter what material the thread is, but larger diameter thread does have more strength. Silk is a bit stronger than Nylon, but it is really not all that much. I'm not sure where Polyester Thread falls in on strength between the other two. Does not matter, they all have plenty.

Color Preserver will not weaken a thread wrap. All it does is soak into the thread and keeps the color as it looks or as close to the color of the thread on the spool. Your finish coating, 2 part, One Part or Varnish, all that stuff does is cover and encapsulate your thread wrap and protect it from the elements and gives you a professional look when done properly.

Those who have removed thread wraps done both ways will probably argue that CP makes them easier to remove. As Bill says, both are plenty strong.

The aspect of "factory color preserved"l thread that I don't like is that it lacks the sheen that you get with regular thread with CP.

Some argue that CP is not necessary, but with regular thread you will get different colors when not using CP. You can predict this by wetting a test wrap with alcohol. The color will be close.

Some effects of using regular thread without CP are quite interesting and handsome. For example if you use a non color fast garnet without CP it likely will turn out looking like ripe sweet cherries.

When I first started rod building I only used colorfast thread with no CP and it worked perfectly fine . After a while I kept hearing how non colorfast thread gave off a much more brilliant sheen and look compared to colorfast thread which many said looks flat and ugly by comparison . Of course one of the steps that's needed is to use CP on non colorfast thread because CP locks in that brilliant look that you get when using non colorfast thread by preventing the colors from bleeding and changing to a more translucent appearance when epoxy finish is applied

As far as strength , whether you use CP or not the strength of the wraps will prove plenty strong either way . My latest builds when I wrapped with regular nylon and used CP feel just as strong as my builds when I used no CP at all the only difference I see is the wraps I used CP on with non colorfast thread have a much more brilliant sparkle and sheen to them.

When a person needs stitches to close up a wound the real strength comes from the stitches, what's put on top of the stitching is just a protective topping . As long as the stitches are done right no worries .

i think the thing i like most about cp is that it seals the thread, making it easier to apply epoxy without fighting bubbles, and that i only have to apply one coat of epoxy as thick or thin as i want making for a lighter rod..

Thread strength is cumulative. Smaller diameter thread gives you more threads per inch than larger diameter thread. So the issue really isn't strength - it's how much additional abuse and rough handling will one give you over the other. D, being "thicker" will withstand more abrasion and over a longer period of time than will A.

CP doesn't make the wrap weak whatsoever. True, NCP or regular nylon without CP will result in a wrap that is roughly 11% stronger than thread of either kind with CP. However, a guide under a wrap with CP will still deform and fail before the wrap does. So the stuff about CP creating weak wraps is nonsense.

Use what you want to get the look you desired. Either will be more than strong enough to do the job. Only thing I will add is that you need to fill the tunnels between the guide foot and the blank with CP and/or epoxy. This serves a twofold purpose - to keep water out and to prevent shifting of the guide on the blank when under extreme pressure.

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One question that's never been answered . Since you use less overall wraps with D thread compared to A thread and more wraps with A thread because it's thinner , in the end what's lighter weight or is it a wash.

In this instance you look at the distance covered, not the diameter of the thread. D will be thicker/higher and therefore more weight for the distance.

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D is thicker than A (0.260 mm vs 0.175 mm, respectively), and weighs about twice as much. Although, it takes less turns per unit distance using D vs A, the weight of the D wrap will still be slightly heavier, but certainly not by a factor of 2.. For example, the weight of A thread used for a one centimeter long wrap on a blank having a one centimeter circumference will be 18.6 milligrams. For D tread, the weight would 26.5 milligrams. a difference of 7.9 milligrams, or 0.0079 grams. Not a huge difference but not quite a wash.
Norm

For those interested, here is a link to the Gudebrod thread strength, and size table.
[www.rodbuilding.org]
Norm

Travis,
Over the years with many hundreds of rods built, I think that I have built less than 100 where I either used NCP thread or nylon with CP on top.

Simply put, I abhor the look of either NCP thread, or nylon thread with a CP coating.

I don't want the colors top pop. I don't want the color to flash. I much rather have a more muted look to the rod where the colors blend with the rod - rather than speaking harshly to be by the brilliance of the colrs.

I agree - it is 100% personal preference.

With respect to strength.
I agree with the other comments. A guide wrapper with either NCP thread, or nylon coated with CP is very adequate to insure that a guide stays locked in place.

However, there is no question that the combination of uncoated nylon and then coated with thread coating epoxy is a tougher and more secure guide attachment to the rod blank.

All that one has to do is to build a rod using ncp or CP coated nylon and another similar rod that is built with uncoated nylon thread and coated with thread coating epoxy.
Then, let a couple of years go by. Now one wants to change the guides on the rod and the guides need to be removed on each rod. One will find that it takes about twice as much time to remove the guides that have been wrapped with uncoated nylon and then coated with thread epoxy in contrast to the rods that have been wrapped with either NCP thread or nylon thread coated with CP and then coated with thread wrapping epoxy.

Don't misunderstand me. Any of the three methods do an adequate job of retaining the guides to the rod. But, just note that down the road - if a guide needs to be replaced or the entire rod needs to be rewrapped - one will spend more time to remove the guide and clean up the rod blank - with the uncoated nylon thread that has been coated with thread coating epoxy.

Each of the three methods give a slightly or a significantly different look to the rod. Each of the three methods will provide adequate strength to give a life time of performance in holding the guides securely to the blank. So, choose the method you wish for the appearance that you wish to achieve.

Take care

p.s.
The post about ease of finish with a CP coated thread is correct. With the cp coating n the thread, there are many many fewer bubbles created when applying finish to the rod guide wraps. If that is a consideration for you, the use of CP does help significantly to reduce bubble formation during the thread coating process.

Thank you all for your valuable input. I apologize for not getting back here sooner. I thought I turned on "email me replies about this topic" button, but I must've fat fingered it and unselected it. I just thought nobody had replied!

All our thread is Pro-Wrap Colorfast, except for Black, which is Non CP nylon, why? because we noticed that if we use nylon black instead of colorfast black, the actual black is richer, the colorfast black tends to look dull or greyish in our opinion. Besides, since epoxy usually darken the non cp thread, when using black, you really want it as black as possible. Now, even though we use colorfast thread on the rest of our spools, we actually apply color preserver to any pastel color thread, and any neon color thread, also lighter threads like yellow, white, grey. Simply because it helps when applying epoxy the color will look very even and we won't have 'bleeding' problems. If we are using a new color, we always make a small test on a piece of blank to see what happens when applying epoxy.