David,
I respect your opinion.
However, if one can keep all balancing weight in the extreme butt section or the last 1/2 inch of the rod - less weight will be required to balance the rod if the weight extends 2 1/2 inches up inside the rod blank.
Simply put, I prefer to use the lead tape because I can keep a much larger portion of the balancing weight in the last 1/2 inch of the rod blank.

However, as I mentioned at the beginning of my reply to this question.

I no longer use any weights on a rod blank and I will never do so again. If I need the rod to be more nearly neutral with respect to balance - I will simply go the route of a longer rear grip.

When casting with a two handed grip - one hand always the extreme butt section of the rod - no matter the length of the rear grip.

I much prefer the total package being lighter without adding any lead or tungsten to the inside or the outside, or the butt end of the rod blank.

Best wishes.

The shorter and lighter the rod blank and guides in front of the grip the less weight is necessary on the rod butt to achieve balance. Is this balance chiefly to reduce fatigue or to improve casting distance or accuracy?

Roger, I too respect your opinion. And if you and others prefer to build with a longer rear grip, so be it. I choose to add weight because my main concern is how the rod performs while in use. While in my hand going through the range of motions a rod goes through when I am using it.

In this and prior threads, I have mentioned how much weight I have added to some of my rods to get to the degree of balance I prefer. I could have easily built those rods to that degree of balance, without adding weight to the butt. Of course I wouldn't have been able to use them. But they sure would have looked pretty when showing a friend or fellow angler how well my rod and reel balances on my finger.

I choose to use tungsten weights for the weight I add to the rod, for their size to weight ratio. For you and others that choose to use lead tape? That's fine and dandy by me. I choose my method because it doesn't require any modification to the butt tenon on the grip, or to the butt cap itself.

Now I gotta git. The movie Batman .... the 1966 original came on 19 minutes ago, and I've already missed enough of it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2021 09:21AM by David Baylor.

Phil,

It is to reduce fatigue. Flipping and pitching is a constant cast retrieve technique. The casting can be quite awkward in some situations as well. You almost never have two hands on the rod during the various casts. It is very close quarters so distance is not a factor and accuracy is in the skill of the angler.

For additional clarity flipping and pitching is summed up as underhand lob casting. One spools line the other doesn't. If you search videos of bass anglers flipping brush then you will see them under handing a bait into coffee can sized hole in the buck brush from 5 feet away. This is the type of fishing this rod is aiming at. Only in my area it is water willow we flip into. While you can achieve good distances pitching (search pitching distance on this forum) flipping rods are not typically advertised as "long distance" casters.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2021 10:37AM by Aaron Petersen.

Aaron, when I first decided to add weight to the butt of my flipping and pitching rods, I did it with reducing fatigue in mind. And reducing fatigue is still the main reason I do it, But I quickly learned that there are more benefits to doing it, than just reducing fatigue. It aids in the presentations themselves. It's so much easier to accelerate the tip of a rod that is balanced to be lip light, than it is of a rod that is tip heavy. That added ease results in greater rod tip speed. Faster rod tip speed makes it easier to keep the bait low to the water, which makes it easier to get the bait under obstructions that are low to the water. And it also makes it easier to get a quiet lure entry into the water. The increased rod tip speed also results in greater distance when pitching. It aids in accuracy as well. And another really awesome benefit is, it makes it easier to detect a bite.

It's like when I started using fluorocarbon line. I initially got it because of its' increased sensitivity over a nylon or co polymer mono filament line. And while that's still one of the major reasons I use it, it has so many other benefits over the nylon and co polymer lines, that any problems that fluorocarbon lines may present in handling and plain old cost of product, IMO are easily outweighed.

I will never not add weight to the butt of one of my personal rods, if I need to do so to achieve the degree of balance I am looking for out of that rod and reel combination. And I will never change the location of my reel seat just to satisfy a need to balance a rod and reel combination. If given a choice, a person can choose to rub two sticks to start a fire, or they can choose to use matches. I'll take the matches each and every time.

Weight, if in the right location, is not an anglers or a rod builders enemy.

Oh, and you gotta love how campy the old Batman TV series and movie was. lol

Based on what I am reading in this thread I gotta ask... to those who balance rods, do you do it with rod and reel alone, or does anyone include weight of lure hanging off rod tip? Am I to assume the comments from those who say balance it are doing rod and reel only? Its not clear to me. I just want some clarification on this point.

And, should a lure weight be included in the overall balance? Especially in flipping setups since many of the lures are quite heavy- based on my bass fishing experience- flipping lures to me are among the heaviest used.

David,

Thanks for the share. I was avoiding things that would make certain people turn this thread into an argument about accuracy and distance data. There are a lot of factors beyond weight distribution that balance effects for sure. Usually I am able to achieve the balance I personally prefer with just my standard length handle and no added weight. I may experiment though thanks to your post. This particular build just had a fairly short handle.


Kent,

It is going to vary by the individual. I do bass flipping rods, worming rods, and bass jig rods with reel only. The reason is that they are slack/semi slack line presentations. I am not lugging the weight around much and rarely are my baits over 1&1/8oz. Punching will be different. I prioritize presentation over the cast.

Is the primary purpose of the weight added to the flipping rod to reduce fatigue, increase casting distance, increase casting accuracy, or some combination of different factors?

Say what? I take it Phil you don't flip much! lol Flippin' ain't casting. And casting ain't flippin'!

For bass fishing, a flippin' stick as we call them is used to punch through heavy vegetation. So the shape of the lure is important so it can slide down through heavy vegetation, and the heavier weights of 1 ounce plus are used to let gravity pull the weight, hook, and lure down through the heavy cover to reach fish hiding in or below such cover.

To me proper balancing would have to include the added lure weight, otherwise even if you build a tip light flippin' setup, the second you put heavy weighted lures on it throw it all off balance. I am one of those would prefer it to be more balanced with the inclusion of the lure weight.

Denny Brauer as far as I know is one of the primary former pro bass fishermen who popularized flippin' and pitchin'. Back in the mid 1980's when Denny was first rising up in the tournament field to champion level, he got a deal with Daiwa and Denny designed what he considered as the ideal flippin' and pitchin' rods which were marketed as Team Daiwa and made in South Korea.

Denny never really discussed balance, but what he did make clear was that he wanted a longer handle to rest on his forearm so the wrist was not taking the action load, the elbow and shoulders were in the methods he taught which I still adhere to and follow to this day. Denny proved to be one of the best bass fishermen I've ever seen in action. The man had a second sense on where fish were located more so than other fishermen.

Those first Denny Brauer designed Team Daiwa rods today are prized rods if you can find them. Back then they sold for under $100, but try and buy one today in mint condition and you could be looking at $300 plus. I still have two of them, and to this day those rods are still the blueprint model for what is made today- even though Denny's preferred requirements have changed since the mid 1980's, his old Team Daiwa rods are still the gold standard today.

Here is a link to Scott Martin's how to... he mentions using a 1.5 ounce tungsten weight. [youtu.be]

Here's a newer Denny Brauer video on flippin' and pitchin' [youtu.be]

Shame his relatively unknown 1987 video on VHS tape has never been released on DVD. In that video he describes the Team Daiwa equipment in great detail. It was shot right here in central Florida on a private cattle ranch lake that Denny has never publicly divulged where it is... and it is to this day one the most influential teaching videos on this subject I have ever seen. Why it was never released on DVD I will never know... and you can't find it on youtube either. but occasionally one of the old VHS tapes show up on @#$%&/sales sites. I bought one when they first came out, asked Denny to sign it and then promptly transferred it to digital myself and I still refer back to it often.

In that video Denny makes one of the most amazing catches I have ever seen. He makes a flip next to a cattail and he silently counts down 1-1000, 2-1000 and he sees the cattail reed shake just a little bit and he instantly sets the hook on a 7 pounder. That one catch taught me to observe things most people miss. I mean who sets a hook because some plant moves a little bit? It could have been the wind. Denny showed with catches like that what a pro is. In other parts of the video Denny says there is a fish right there. And he pulls one out. And then he says I think there is another in there and he pulls a second one out. I have never seen anyone fish like he does.

I can see why Denny has basically created the gold standard for flippin' and pitchin'. He is one of the best at it there ever was or is. He catches fish out places hard to imagine fish are even in there. And he designed his rods and reels for his technique and still used to this day.

I just found a Denny Brauer video discussing the flippin' rods design... and the reels he designed for it [youtu.be]

And a 1996 video on the technique... [youtu.be]



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2021 02:29PM by Kent Griffith.

Phil Ewanicki Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Is the primary purpose of the weight added to the
> flipping rod to reduce fatigue, increase casting
> distance, increase casting accuracy, or some
> combination of different factors?

I find the benefits both in reduced fatigue and increased accuracy (when viewed from the stand point you are either pitching or flipping a plastic or jig, not casting per say). I feel balancing is more beneficial in general to bottom contact (tip up) presentations, and what I have done. For example, I just built an NFC IM MB739. That rod is very tip heavy. I palm my reels and the weight (force) of the tip constantly pulling down over a long day of using this rod for say a jig, will definitely fatigue your wrist (fulcrum) without balancing (reducing the downward tip force). The added weight of the finished build may increase by 1/2 to 1.5oz, but done properly that rod just floats effortlessly in your hand at the reel seat and the increase weight isn't even noticed. Technically you can probably argue that casting (pitching) distance can also be increased do to a decrease in fatigue and reduction in downward tip force.

Hope that makes sense and provides some value to those interested.

Logically being balanced for pitching makes sense on gaining distance in casting because less effort is required to put speed in the tip. Accuracy, in flipping specifically, I find to be dependent upon comfort and decreased effort. The harder I work flipping the more I miss. And flipping success can be greatly impacted by missing 2" targets on the first attempt. So I can see the reasoning behind balanced flipping rods enhancing accuracy.

I don't believe that it makes sense to balance a rod and include the weight of the lure or lead on the end of the rod in the form of a lure, jig or something else.

After the cast or flip is complete - the line is typically slack or semi slack - often for hours at a time. It is this time - with the lure i the water and the lure or the jig working the bottom that one needs the sensitivity and balance that a well balanced rod - with no terminal tackle in the equation.

If one were to balance the rod with a heavy weight on the tip, then once that heavy weight is on the bottom and one is sensing for the bite on a slack line the rod will be very butt heavy by virtue of no weight on the tip of the rod from the lure or jig.

But, this is a custom rod building forum.
So, if you want a balanced rod with a unique configuration and it works for you, then by all means continue to use the method that works to your satisfaction.

Typically when flippin' in cover the lure is never sitting on the bottom remaining still providing a slack line for hours at a time to make the butt end heavier- and we are only talking about maybe one ounce or so. If you watch any of the pro's do it, the lure is in constant motion and is constantly hanging off the rod tip giving its balancing weight to the overall setup while fishing. Isn't that when balance is most important? During the act of fishing?

I am also not aware that rod sensitivity had anything to do with its weight distribution and balance. Curious how balance changes a rod's sensitivity? And wouldn't a lighter tip make it easier to activate or vibrate when a fish bites on the lure? A heavier tip would take more physical force to make it move.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/20/2021 05:14PM by Kent Griffith.

Roger's explanation for not including the weight of the bait being used, is spot on to my way of thinking. I don't balance with the weight of the bait in mind, (that weight can change drastically) I balance it for when the bait is on the bottom. As such, when I start to balance the rods I feel need balanced, I have the reel mounted that is full of line, with the line ran through the guides, and a length of line hanging past the tip of the rod. Usually around 10' of line past the rod tip. I am balancing the rod and reel combination for just the weight of the line between the reel, and a point to where it would be entering the water while working a bait.

I don't do a lot of punching, but even if I did, I wouldn't be taking the weight of the bait being used, into consideration. I am balancing it for the weight of the slack, or semi slack line. The weight / bait combination is sitting on the bottom. In my estimation, it's a non factor.

And Denny Brauer is one of my favorite fisherman as well. I don't know him per say, but I have met him a couple times, and had some short conversations with him. He is a genuinely nice guy. But he is also a bigger guy than me, so a rear grip length that works for him may not work for others. That's one of the great thing about building rods for yourself, you can tailor the dimensions of the various aspects of the rod, to your own physical stature, and even to the physical dimensions of your boat. For myself, I'm shorter than average, and I don't have super long arms. The longest rear grip I would ever put on a flipping or pitching rod, is 10". Anything longer becomes a problem under certain conditions that cause me to wear bulkier clothing, or a rain suit.

I own a bass boat, but it doesn't have what is considered to be a flipping deck, so its' gunwales are slightly taller than some of the gunwales on a lot of today's bass boats. So because I am shorter (30" inseam) and because my boat's gunwales are slightly taller, I take those factors into consideration when choosing rod length.

That's why in past threads, that the words "rod performance" has a different meaning to each individual. A custom built rod, at least in my estimation, is a rod built with total performance in mind. Total performance while actually using the rod. Not how it would perform in some bench test. Benches are for sitting on while you feed birds in the park, or for sitting lake side watching a sunrise or sunset.

That's why I don't have a problem adding weight to a rod. Weight, without a doubt, can make a rod better.

Also late to this discussion. Another few great options, again in tungsten, are these:
[www.amazon.com]

[www.amazon.com]

[www.jsflyfishing.com]

Each of these will add toxic free weight where you need it.

Tight Lies and frisky fish

RJF

Kent, I was typing my latest post while you were. I kind of have to disagree about the bait not sitting on the bottom while flipping, or pitching for that matter. When flipping, at least the way I flip, and others(even old Denny himself) that I've seen flip, you're letting the bait fall on a slack line. Your hand controlling the line is following the line back to the reel. The folks you're describing are fishing the bait on the fall, but the line is still slack, or under a controlled slack, and that's where, at least IMO, the benefits of a tip light rod come into play.

I live in northeast Ohio, where our lakes would be considered small. The biggest lake I fish (aside from Lake Erie) is right around 6,000 acres. The majority of them being between 1,800 - 2,500 acres. Bass are pressured everywhere, but they are really pressured here. There are days where the fish will hit the bait on the fall, but the majority of the time I find myself having to dead stick the bait, or shake the bait while it's in cover, before I get a bite. My bait is on the bottom for a far greater time than it's in motion during the actual presentation of the bait.

And I don't balance just flipping and pitching rods. I balance (if needed) any rod that I use for slack and semi slack line techniques where I am fishing the bait with the rod tip up, and I am trying to feel for a bite. I drag and hop a tube a lot for smallmouth bass. A tip light rod is a big benefit for that type of fishing.

Anyhow ..... I really love this type of conversation. As Martha Stewart would say ......... "it's a good thing"

Robert, very cool and a bit ironic that you posted those links. I live in Akron Ohio, and the Soap Box Derby is just beginning this week. In fact I was detoured around the road that runs by the facility today, and can actually see the hill from where I work.

With big jigs and flipping plastics you don't want a full slack line fall. With jigs especially they will get hit on the fall. If it falls full slack and gets inhaled you are more likely to miss the bite. Experienced anglers will go for a hook set when the fall is taking too long. So controlling the line on the fall to keep it just shy of taught is what the pros are doing that make it look like tight lines. They drop it in and give it a bounce or two or shake it for a few seconds then pull it out and go for the next target. Some of my favorite guys to watch do this are, Gerald Swindle, the aforementioned Denny Brauer, and long time pro Randy Blaukat. Randy gives up a lot of good information on his youtube and I had an in depth spring jig seminar over the lockdown with him and Johnny from FTM. Very knowledgeable. While jigs seem so simple, repeated success is defined by complex techniques and strategies. How I teach my boys to fish jigs is by the three rules below. They are both under 10 and seem to find success just following these rules.

Three key rules with flipping jigs.

1. Maintain bottom contact during retrieve. (For flipping this means end your hops with bottom contact and if shaking in place make sure you aren't lifting and shaking off the bottom.)

2. Maintain contact with you jig. (Never let the line go full slack like you would a worm.)

3. Always throw to a target. (Evaluate your cover and only focus on key elements of each piece of cover. ie; Don't throw to water willow. Throw to the hole, small point, or cove in the water willow. For bushes don't throw to the bush. Thro to that coffee can sized hole in the bush that is set up in the shade.)

I don't fish with slack line either. And it is kind of hard to go slack with such heavy weights. And when a pro realizes his lure hit bottom and line slacks up some what does he do? He pulls it back up and feels the weight of the lure. And often flippin involves keeping the lure off the bottom and fishing it above the bottom. Slack line as stated above is how to lose fish.

So the bottom line here is- pun intended, if a person builds a rod and reel setup to be balanced without the lure, then when in the act of fishing with a heavier flippin' lure the setup is now tip heavy.

This is why I include an average lure weight into the setup to offset this imbalance.

Kent Griffith Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So the bottom line here is- pun intended, if a
> person builds a rod and reel setup to be balanced
> without the lure, then when in the act of fishing
> with a heavier flippin' lure the setup is now tip
> heavy.
>
> This is why I include an average lure weight into
> the setup to offset this imbalance.


I completely get your point. I haven't yet tried to balance a rod with say 1/2-1oz of weight hanging off the tip. Mainly because I hadn't considered it feasible or really possible without greatly extending handle length to a point I wouldn't be happy with the finished rod. How much weight is required to counter balance 1/2oz lure on a 7'-3" rod? Seems like that would be upwards of 2-3 oz with a 10" handle length.