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Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: Aaron Petersen (12.144.64.---)
Date: July 19, 2021 09:53AM

What are some of the ways you have added weight to the butt of the rod without being conspicuous? I am building a flipping stick for a young man in the junior division and he needs a shorter handle. So I need to add weight but he does not want the adjustable weighted butt cap.

Thank you in advance.
Aaron Petersen

Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: Joe Vanfossen (---.neo.res.rr.com)
Date: July 19, 2021 10:10AM

Here is one I did for a steelhead rod.

[www.rodbuilding.org]

In addition to the washers, I sent a lead weight that could be concealed under the butt cap and a piece of cork with instructions on how to glue up the butt cap once he was satisfied. The owner lives in another state, so I wanted to give him some options to tweak the balance to his liking as he wasn't entirely sure whether he wanted a fully balanced rod or not. This solution worked out well.

That build has lead tape wrapped around the last inch of the blank, a stainless T-nut epoxied into the butt of the blank with a set of 3/4" OD stainless washers. I made a lead weight that could be tucked into the butt cap by drilling a 3/4" OD hole in a 2x4, screwing in the stainless screw and pouring lead around the screw. A hole saw works great for boring out the wood because you end up with a centered hole.

If you check around on Aliexpress, you may be able to find suitable tungsten washers to use in place of a lead weight.

Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.res.spectrum.com)
Date: July 19, 2021 10:13AM

The added weight will have to be located BEHIND the angler's hand on the grip to provide an increase in "balance". The rod is a class-two lever and conforms to the generally accepted laws of physics



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2021 10:17AM by Phil Ewanicki.

Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.res.spectrum.com)
Date: July 19, 2021 10:13AM

The



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2021 10:19AM by Phil Ewanicki.

Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: July 19, 2021 10:52AM

AAron,
My first piece of advice is to simply build the rod with the longer handle for better balance. The young man will adapt.

However, if you do want to add weight without being obvious - the solution is simple - LEAD TAPE.

Lead tape is used by many different industries to balance items. i.e. golf clubs, tennis rackets etc.

I used to use this method to balance rods and blanks but finally evolved to the point that I simply use longer handles to achieve balance and have dispensed with adding any weight to the rod and rod blank.

Examples of lead tape for sale:
[www.amazon.com]

In the past when I used lead tape, I balanced the bare blank to the point where it needed to be by adding rolls of lead tape wrapped around the butt of the rod. I would typically use 1/2 inch or 3/4 inch wide tape I would add tape that was consistent with the internal size of the rod butt cap that I was going to put on the rod. I would use rubber chair leg tips that I would turn down to match the od of the finished butt grip. The typical id of the butt cap was 3/4 inch. But, if a flipping rod, you may be using a larger rear grip and could thus use a larger butt cap on the rod blank.

Once I had achieved balance with enough layers of lead tape, I would go ahead and build the rod. As appropriate, the butt cap would be glued onto the tenon that I would have on the rear of the rear grip and the final balance would be as light as possible since it was in the most rear ward location possible but would be completely hidden by the butt cap.


Don't make the mistake of stuffing lead up the inside of the blank to balance a rod. If the weight extends any more than about 1 inch from the extreme rear of the blank you are beginning to add weight without achieving balance.
I have also made that mistake many years ago. The end result was a balanced lead sled that was not much fun to use.
Take care



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2021 10:56AM by roger wilson.

Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: Joel Babin (98.39.46.---)
Date: July 19, 2021 11:05AM

I'm not certain if it's good or bad to do this, but recently I've used tungsten worm weights 1/2oz to 1oz wrapped in masking tape to match the ID of the rod blank. I encapsulate the weight in generation 4 epoxy as I slide it into the blank. The weight remains in the last inch of the rod blank and the epoxy prevents its from moving or coming loose. I just balanced a longer punch rod and thus far works great.

Would love to hear if this is a generally acceptable measure to balance a rod.

Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: Joe Vanfossen (131.123.51.---)
Date: July 19, 2021 11:38AM

Joel, as long as you are keeping the weight at the extreme butt of the rod, you are doing it right. If you can get by with a single weight inside the blank, then that is perfect. If not, then you need to start thinking about the weight inside plus lead tape around the outside of the blank, or lead tape, plus some sort of weighted extension. If you can keep the weight hidden away under the butt cap, then it is easy enough to add weight and keep the overall rear grip a prescribed length.

Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: Aaron Petersen (12.144.64.---)
Date: July 19, 2021 12:15PM

Thank you all for the ideas. I normally would do a longer handle but the young man was set on a certain length. I think someone go into his ear about rods being too long and catching clothing. I tried to educate him that when flipping and pitching the rod does not get hung up like it would when working a jerkbait. But an order is an order. So an 8" handle is what he will get. I like the idea of lead tape and the tungsten. I have tungsten weights laying around so I will temporary one in there for testing.

Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.inf6.spectrum.com)
Date: July 19, 2021 12:45PM

"Balance" is a precise term in most applications. Both sides are equal: weight, importance, value, etc.. What exactly DOES the term balance mean when applied to fish poles? We can't exchange much information when "balance" means different things to different people or different marketers.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2021 12:48PM by Phil Ewanicki.

Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: Spencer Phipps (---)
Date: July 19, 2021 01:09PM

Aaron,
I would temperorarily mock up the rod for him so he could experience the rod with different handle lengths, experience beats advise, good, or bad hands down. It's not necessary for anyone to buy a mistake, that's why we do this.

Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: Aaron Petersen (12.144.64.---)
Date: July 19, 2021 01:24PM

Spencer Phipps Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Aaron,
> I would temperorarily mock up the rod for him so
> he could experience the rod with different handle
> lengths, experience beats advise, good, or bad
> hands down. It's not necessary for anyone to buy a
> mistake, that's why we do this.

I will do just that. I will mount the seat on arbor and have him hold it. I am going to be seeing him prior to finishing anyhow.

Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---.inf6.spectrum.com)
Date: July 19, 2021 01:35PM

Spencer: Right on. Words mean different things in different situations. I wouldn't carry or own ANY rod + reel + line + lure/weight that BALANCED on my casting hand. The trouble with ad-speak such as "balanced" or "powerful" or "smooth" or "sensitive" is these words mean nothing about the real world.

Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: Joel Babin (98.39.46.---)
Date: July 19, 2021 01:42PM

Joe Vanfossen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Joel, as long as you are keeping the weight at the
> extreme butt of the rod, you are doing it right.
> If you can get by with a single weight inside the
> blank, then that is perfect. If not, then you
> need to start thinking about the weight inside
> plus lead tape around the outside of the blank, or
> lead tape, plus some sort of weighted extension.
> If you can keep the weight hidden away under the
> butt cap, then it is easy enough to add weight and
> keep the overall rear grip a prescribed length.

Appreciate it Joe. I forgot to mention I do mount the intended reel into a the reel seat when evaluating different weights located at the extreme butt of the rod. Higher modulus rods makes inserting a weight a little limiting due to the smaller diameters, but tend to balance better as they are less tip heavy.

Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: Aaron Petersen (12.144.64.---)
Date: July 19, 2021 01:50PM

Phil,
I am not balancing for ad speak or marketing. As a custom rod builder I do not market stock rods and rarely market at all. The balance of a flipping rod is not a null balance centered on the hand as you refer to. Generally it is butt heavy and tip light as it will be fished prolonged amounts of time with heavy baits in one hand. Much like a jigging rod for salmon. I have used specific rods for bouncing candlesticks on the Canal floor. It is a vastly improved experience over tying one on the flasher trolling rod.

Your hand is the fulcrum and any weight advantage on the butt will aid in the working of the bait with less fatigue. There is not a "scientific" weight ratio that is "best" or advertised as such by myself. It is generally a personal "feel." I know you like that word. Generally the length of bass flipping rods and their heavy tapers lend to a decent ratio of weight on each end of the fulcrum. (Balance for short) With this rod, as mentioned previously, the handle was desired to be shorter and thus weight would need to be added to reduce fishing fatigue.

All that said, I imagine your idea of true marketing is, "(fill in blank) Rods, they are sticks you put strings on." "You can buy mine, or not. Both catch fish."

Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: Spencer Phipps (---)
Date: July 19, 2021 04:38PM

Another option for better balance is a shorter blank, I have no idea what you were starting with.

Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: ben belote (---.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
Date: July 19, 2021 06:36PM

i always liked the old telescopic fllipping rods. the heavier butt section did a good job of balancing out the rod...

Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: Aaron Petersen (---.231.32.247.158.ip.kansas.net)
Date: July 19, 2021 09:38PM

The rod is a 7'4". I guided them toward this rod for balance. A normal grip length would likely work out well. They came by to test fit the mock up handle. The angler liked the shorter handle.

So I thank you all for your valued inputs. I had a tungsten weight perfect for the job and it really worked perfectly.

[www.rodbuilding.org]

Thank you all so much.

Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: Aaron Petersen (---.231.32.247.158.ip.kansas.net)
Date: July 19, 2021 09:50PM

This is the handle chosen by the angler.

[www.rodbuilding.org]

Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: Joel Babin (98.39.46.---)
Date: July 19, 2021 10:50PM

Great news... glad it worked out.

Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: David Baylor (---.res6.spectrum.com)
Date: July 20, 2021 12:04AM

I'm late to the party, but since I am a balanced rod and reel combo nut for those types of rods, I wanted to share my method. I do pretty much exactly what Joel said.

First off, its a flipping and pitching rod which means it need to be easily manipulated. You put the rod in some weird positions while flipping and pitching, and too long of a rear grip can quickly get in the way. Build with a comfortable grip length, taking into account any clothing that might be worn while using the rod. A grip length that works when wearing a tee shirt and shorts, may not work when wearing heavier warmer clothing, or a rain suit.

I too use tungsten worm weights for my weight. All due respect to those that suggested it, but lead tape is IMO a poor choice. Lead isn't as heavy as tungsten, so it's going to take up more space, and IMO be more difficult to work with, But too each their own.

I differ from Joel in that I put my weights inside a foam shim like those used for reel seats. I ream the shim to accept the weight. A 1 oz tungsten cylindrical weight is pretty darned skinny, and not all that long. I try to use cylindrical weights if I can, but I've used worm weights as well. Anyhow ... I epoxy the weights inside the shim then sand the OD of the shim down to fit in the butt of the blank. Then I epoxy that into the blank. If you ever do want to change it because you put a different reel on the rod, And reel weight, unless it's an extreme difference, doesn't make much of a difference in rod and reel balance. The weight is at the pivot point. Getting back to the if you ever want to change the weight, or even eliminate it, it pretty easy to take a small pick, like that used for moving thread n such, and chip the foam shim away. It's a little work, but the weight will come out.

As far as how far any weight extends up the length of the blank. I've added 2 3/8 oz and 2 1/4 oz of weight inside the butt of two of my rods. The 2 3/8 ozs of weight extends 2 3/8" (kind of cool how that worked out lol) up inside the blank. I have 9 3/4 rear grips on those rods. So roughly 25% of the length of the grip. Yes the closer to the very butt of the rod, the less weight you have to use, but the extra amount you have to add because it isn't at the very butt of the rod, is not that drastic.

Try it for yourself, Simply build the rod, put the butt cap on, but don't epoxy it on. Take the weights you want to use and tape them to the very butt of the blank. Record how much weight you needed to use to achieve the degree of balance you are looking for. Now take those weights and tape to the but of the handle end to end, just as if they were installed inside the blank, now add the additional weight needed to achieve the same balance point. It's not going to be much.

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