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Current Page: 3 of 6
Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: ben belote (---.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
Date: July 21, 2021 10:21AM

i have a very hard time grasping the benefits of fishing with a rod that i have intentionally made heavier by adding two, three or maybe four more ounces to..i never concerned myself with balance because all i had to do was change my grip position and the balance changed to either a tip up or tip down posture..but all my cast rods are built for using a tip-up grip..if i run say a spinnebait the tip will automaticly be pulled down..



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2021 11:50AM by ben belote.

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Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: Kent Griffith (---)
Date: July 21, 2021 10:32AM

Who said you had to add weight?

Build with included weight distribution built in.

It is not about adding weight. For me it is about where and how the weight you already have and are dealing with is distributed in the build to make this balancing act more workable for fishing comfort.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2021 10:33AM by Kent Griffith.

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Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: Aaron Petersen (12.144.64.---)
Date: July 21, 2021 11:08AM

Of all the builds I have made for this application I have never needed weight added. Due to angler needs for a short handle, as noted in OP, I determined in a mock up it was necessary for comfort. Weight is not always the enemy.

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Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: Spencer Phipps (---)
Date: July 21, 2021 02:29PM

Weight is weight, you're still packing it all day, am I wrong in assuming there will be a second hand on the foregrip with the line through your fingers, that was how I was taught to flip, it changes the whole balance dynamic when you flip correctly.

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Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: ben belote (---.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
Date: July 21, 2021 03:39PM

yes, as Spencer just said..when you use the foregrip, the weight of the reel gives you a tip up posture without adding weight or using too long of a handle, in fact you can now use a short handle which will not be in the way when making a flip and transfering the rod from one hand to the other..and it,s surprising how much your hook sets improve because you can generate more hook speed with this grip..it may feel awkward at first because a lot of fisherman are not used to it..it only takes one full day of fishing to get use to..

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Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: Aaron Petersen (12.144.64.---)
Date: July 21, 2021 03:53PM

On the cast you are always one hand. I personally have a finger touch the line and a finger on the rod but no foregrip. I just taper the reel seat down or use a unilock style hood. Pitching my off hand moves to the reel to reel up prior to the set. Flipping I will use it for the initial set and go straight to the reel. Neither of those scenarios to I hold any weight in my off hand. Just extra feels for the bite. I do put weight in that hand when using casting or offshore style jigs when I am dragging.

Weight is weight? No. Holding five lbs close to you belt line vs straight in front of you makes a huge difference in fatigue. Same weight. Longer moment arm means more work is required to lift. Unbalanced and lighter rods with a higher ratio of weight to the tip will feel heavier than a balanced tip light rod that is 1 to 2 oz heavier.

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Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---)
Date: July 21, 2021 04:35PM

The argument seems to be: "If you add more weight to the right point in the rod the rod will feel more sensitive or lighter or cast better."??! This may be true about exotic casts made to bass in specific circumstances but it is never true of fly rods or fly casting for any fish with any fly in any environment I am aware of.

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Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.44.66.72.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: July 21, 2021 06:05PM

Nice try Aaron, good luck!!! It's all about the feel without developing tendonitis in the process. Some will never get it. And I don't mean tendonitis.

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Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: chris c nash (70.40.82.---)
Date: July 21, 2021 06:06PM

Just thought some may be interested in reading a thread from over a decade ago on rod balancing .

[www.rodbuilding.org]

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Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.44.66.72.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: July 21, 2021 06:32PM

Interesting indeed.

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Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: chris c nash (70.40.82.---)
Date: July 21, 2021 07:12PM

A few others opinions from those that have left us or don't post anymore for whatever reason but it's not all that different than what the current opinions are for the most part . You have fans of weighting the butt and non fans which is typical of most things in life.

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Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: David Baylor (---.res6.spectrum.com)
Date: July 21, 2021 08:50PM

As far as the slack or semi slack line thing goes, it appears to be a definition thing. As for my definition, a slack line would be fishing a weightless Senko, or a weightless wacky worm on the fall. Or even if you're fishing a jig or Texas rigged bait and you're trying to get it to fall right along the cover you're fishing. Let's say you're fishing a dock and the post you're fishing is sticking out of the bottom in 5' of water. If you want the bait to fall to the bottom right where post comes out of the bottom, so you start stripping line off the reel, because if you don't, the water resistance of the line is going to cause the bait to pendulum away from the post, or the cover. We have one lake near me, in fact I just fished a tournament on it Saturday, and this lake is chock full of toothy critters. A.K A. Musky. If you pitch a bait to a piece of cover and that bait pendulums away from the cover, chances are you're not going to get bit because the fish won't come out of the cover to grab the bait as its falling. The little bitty bass that haven't learned their lesson yet may dart out of cover to grab a bait. But the big girls rarely do.

So back to definitions. If I am stripping line off my reel and letting the bait fall vertically, I consider that slack line. It's a controlled slack line fall, which is what I consider a flipping presentation to be. As far as if I flip "correctly" or not. Let's not throw that kind of stuff around, because it's going to result in an argument. I'll just say watch videos of Dee Thomas, the supposed father of flipping, and you tell me if his off hand goes under the fore grip? The only pro I have ever seen who has his hand go under the fore grip is Gary Klein. According to Gary, Dee Thomas taught him how to flip. Evidently Gary modified the presentation. Because as I said .... go to Youtube and pull up videos of Dee Thomas flipping. Every video I have seen of Dee Thomas flipping does not show him even putting a finger under the fore grip.

This correctly stuff really gets me. If I am to be honest, I would say that Dee Thomas doesn't flip correctly. He is right handed and uses right hand retrieve reels, which means he switches hands while flipping. Never seen him pitch so I can't speak to that. I am right handed and use right hand retrieve reels. There are people that are right handed that use left hand retrieve reels that tell me and others like me, that we are doing it wrong by switching hands. They come out with all this guff about wasted motion and this and that. Yes I switch hands when casting. It's second nature. But I do not switch hands when flipping or pitching. I hold the rod in my left hand, because switching hands while flipping and pitching WILL cost you missed fish.

Anyhow ..... interesting read on the linked thread. I didn't know that my 3/8 oz lead head jig doesn't weigh 3/8 oz once it enters the water. I mean whoda thunk it ..... a piece of lead becomes neutrally buoyant when it enters the water.

These discussions always come around to the same conclusions. What it comes down to is personal preference. Counter balancing a rod with weight at the butt is NOT strictly about comfort. It's a definite benefit, and one of the main reasons I do it, but it's not the only reason I do it. Yes adding weight to a rod lessens the rod's sensitivity. But that doesn't mean balancing a rod by adding weight, doesn't make it easier to detect a bite with, because it in fact DOES make it easier to detect a bite. And it also aids in other areas of the presentation.

You guys can build your rods with as few guides and as light as you want. You can move the reel seat anywhere you want. I build my rods, pretty much all of them, with extra guides. I do so because it utilizes more of the blank's power, and it helps to protect the blank when it gets put in a precarious position while fighting or landing a fish. Do I want to build my rods as sensitive as I can? Sure I do. But only as long as they have the attributes I want them to have. What good is a rod, if it doesn't do what you want it to do?

I just turned my head and looked at one of those kind of rods sitting my rod rack. It doesn't have any guides on it right now though. I stripped those guides off and used them on my latest build, and my latest build does exactly what I want it to do.

It's been fun ..........



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/21/2021 08:57PM by David Baylor.

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Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: Kent Griffith (---)
Date: July 21, 2021 09:06PM

David Baylor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I build my rods, pretty
> much all of them, with extra guides. I do so
> because it utilizes more of the blank's power,

Say what? I am trying to wrap my mind around this statement.

I can access a rod's power with just a tip guide.

The rest of the guides are merely for keeping line flow in check to the power point.

In my opinion none of the rod guides "access" the rod's power. Only a tip guide can do so because that is where the load is.

Think about a construction crane in operation. Many cranes bend like a rod blank under load.

The load is carried at the tip. How does placing some loops around the cables going down the crane access any power of the crane? Look at the following image. Does the "guides" on this bending crane access its power? It would not matter if the line ran on top or on the underside of this crane. If the line flowed on the underside through "guides" it would place no more load on this crane than if it ran on the top as seen here. That cable or line run along the blank is not accessing any of the cranes power. That is only done at the tip. What if the winch was beside the load below and it was a straight down pull on just the tip? The crane would experience the same load, same bend and yet the cable is not accessing any of its power anywhere else along the crane or blank. It don't work that way. Accessing a rod's power is only done at one place and that is the tip same as a crane.

Ask yourself this while looking at the image below... if the company who made this crane added more rollers for line control, would it cause the load to access more of the crane's power? In my opinion no. You can put as many line rollers you want to on this crane and it will not access any more power from the crane. All more guides on a fishing rod do is increase line flow resistance while casting and especially when loaded. Each guide adds its own amount of friction to line flow making it harder to reel in a fish with more guides than necessary, and adds unnecessary weight too.



To me physics does not work this way for fishing rods. A fishing rod will work just fine with just a tip and no other guides on the blank. Try it sometime. Then it becomes clear the guides along the blank are there merely for re-directive line control and not much else. The crane is the same.

Think about a rod with no guides on it and the line flows down into and up through the open void center core of the rod. I use to have one of them. It sucked. But, the load is still carried by the tip. The line flowing through the core of the rod was not "accessing" any of the rod's power and it was acting the same as if guides would do if placed side by side for the entire length of the rod blank. They are not "accessing" rod blank power in my opinion.

And I am also infinitely baffled by those who say they balance their rods and reels with no lure hanging off it and want it tip light. But as soon as they place a 1.5 ounce lure on it, it is now tip heavy and no longer balanced and that is how they fish it. Tip heavy while thinking or believing their setup is balanced while fishing with it.

Like Tom says people can build rods any way they want to. They all catch fish. But none of us seem to have the same understandings of physics and this leads us to think things differently from others. But if we were all the same it would be one boring world! Fish on!



Edited 9 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2021 11:03AM by Kent Griffith.

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Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: Aaron Petersen (12.144.64.---)
Date: July 22, 2021 08:16AM

If I balance my rod with a 3/8 jig on the end I will do so with my jig sitting on bottom. So yes a 3/8 oz jig tied on the line does not mean I am applying 3/8oz of weight to my tip. When the jig is free falling through the water column you are not supporting the weight with your rod because it is falling on slack line. Will there be weight when I move the bait? yes. But to try and balance for that would be adding an incredible amount of weight. Too much weight for this application.

I think sight has been lost on what this discussion started as. I am not trying to make a 1oz tungsten seesaw. Balance of a rod to me is the same balance a race car driver speaks of when conveying setup change during a practice session. Finding the appropriate ratio of setup to feel comfortable and confident when performing your intended task.

For me, when I fish in this manner, the critical time when I am working the bait and feeling bites happens either on the fall or sitting on bottom. In both those times the bait is not putting weight on the rod tip. Either the lake floor is supporting it or it is free falling. I personally prioritize the feel of the rod at this time. It puts less stress into my wrist and thusly reduces fatigue.

For fun take a flipping rod you have and move it continuously up and down while holding it as you normally would. Using a timer see how long it takes until you feel muscle discomfort going no more than 5 minutes. Then rest and try the same thing holding the rod on the butt. See if there is a difference.

Chris C,
Thanks for that link. It seems a lot has been unchanged since then. I feel these kind of open discussions help all who are open to listen to everyone's ideas and thoughts.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2021 08:22AM by Aaron Petersen.

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Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---)
Date: July 22, 2021 09:06AM

A fly-caster probably makes a lot more "casting motions" per hour than a spin or bait caster, but fly-rod "balance" is seldom mentioned. I wonder why?

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Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: Joel Babin (98.39.46.---)
Date: July 22, 2021 09:25AM

Aaron Petersen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think sight has been lost on what this
> discussion started as. I am not trying to make a
> 1oz tungsten seesaw.
>
> For me, when I fish in this manner, the critical
> time when I am working the bait and feeling bites
> happens either on the fall or sitting on bottom.
> In both those times the bait is not putting weight
> on the rod tip. Either the lake floor is
> supporting it or it is free falling. I personally
> prioritize the feel of the rod at this time. It
> puts less stress into my wrist and thusly reduces
> fatigue.
>
> For fun take a flipping rod you have and move it
> continuously up and down while holding it as you
> normally would. Using a timer see how long it
> takes until you feel muscle discomfort going no
> more than 5 minutes. Then rest and try the same
> thing holding the rod on the butt. See if there
> is a difference.

I think your situation/goal was clearly presented in your opening post and your request was simply looking for methods to accomplish your goal. I've never had much success in life ignoring what people/customers want and instead forcing them into what I think they should want. I can clearly express benefits and drawbacks to paint the picture, try to educate, but it's still their wants and needs I'm looking to satisfy. If I disagree that strongly against what they want I can always refer them elsewhere.

Myself, being only 5-6 I cannot have a very long rear grip at all before I find the rod to be cumbersome and not suitable for my needs. I have just a few handle lengths I've found suitable for my builds, and I'd prefer a rod to be 1/2oz heavier than handle length increase by 2-3 inches to achieve the balance I want. I also find it doesn't become a factor until my overall rod length gets to 7-3 or longer. Little things like handle length, balance, guide count, fit and finish, are what drove me to start building my own rods. I knew I could produce a better product, specifically for my preferences, than what was available, and let's face it... there is something special about building your own rod and catching that first fish on it. Adding 1/2 of tungsten weight in the butt on what I would already consider a light 7-6 build to me is negligible and doesn't impact sensitivity as much as many suggest. Part of my point is not everyone is the same size, build, has the same strength, holds their rods/reels the same way.

I will say this, bass fisherman have their preferences... it's difficult to correlate with fly fishing or offshore fishing. The question was specifically for balancing a flipping stick... a freshwater bass fishing technique specific rod.

Dobyns rods are wildly popular across the US and the number one thing that most people will reference when recommending them is their balance. Which they are balanced well. Perceived right or wrong, bass fishermen like it. One of the most popular jig rods on the planet is the Loomis 894JWR, however one of the biggest complaints against this rod has long been it's lack of balance (being tip heavy). It's largely in part of what drove development of the Daiwa Steez Bottom Contact Rod.

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Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: Joel Babin (98.39.46.---)
Date: July 22, 2021 09:35AM

Phil Ewanicki Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A fly-caster probably makes a lot more "casting
> motions" per hour than a spin or bait caster, but
> fly-rod "balance" is seldom mentioned. I wonder
> why?

The fly reel itself balances a fly rod... whether or not one chooses a fly reel based on how well it balances or feels on the fly rod before purchasing it doesn't take away from this. Your hand is on the rod in front of the reel, the fulcrum is there and the reel is relieving the tip weight. It's not much different than putting a reel on an intended bass rod and maybe adding a little weight to the butt to make the rod and reel float in your hand better (when palming the reel).

When I purchased my fly rod and reel I found the rod I wanted, then tried various reels until I found the one that felt best on the rod. Part of that was indeed balance.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2021 09:36AM by Joel Babin.

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Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: Aaron Petersen (12.144.64.---)
Date: July 22, 2021 09:37AM

Joel,

Thank you.

The angler I am building for is very similar in stature to you. That is why this is the first one I have had to add a weight to. I have built 8 other flipping/pitching rods but all for me at 6'2" and two other anglers who are both over 6'. The tournament anglers are tough and great customers at the same time. Tough because they know exactly what they want and great because they know exactly what they want.

I have been working with a local pro who has helped test some technique specific things that are not the traditional setup general bass anglers are accustomed to. 8 out of 10 times I give him something he tells me "won't work" or "no way that beats my (fill in the blank)" his feedback is that he loves it and has never felt anything like it. The problem is convincing someone of that who has more skin in the game. I need to find a way to get some rods in hands but that is another thread for another day.

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Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: Norman Miller (---.lightspeed.jcsnms.sbcglobal.net)
Date: July 22, 2021 11:00AM

I really have no problems with adding weight to the butt end of a flipping/pitching rod. As I have mentioned previously, a balanced rod is much more enjoyable to fish with than one which is overly tip heavy. In addition, I’m also not convinced that adding weight to only the butt end of the rod would reduce sensitivity substantially. The stiffness to weight ratio of the blank in front of the hand has not changed one bit. As I see it, sensitivity is the ability to perceive a impulse traveling from the tip through the blank to the hand. Since nothing has changed from the tip to the hand, I don’t see how sensitivity would change that much if any by adding weight behind the hand. Just my opinion.
Norm

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Re: Flipping rod balance tricks
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: July 22, 2021 11:09AM

Norman
10-4.

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