Aaron - Glad to hear this particular build worked out well and he loves it. Always encouraging to get that positive feedback.

Norman Miller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I really have no problems with adding weight to
> the butt end of a flipping/pitching rod. As I have
> mentioned previously, a balanced rod is much more
> enjoyable to fish with than one which is overly
> tip heavy. In addition, I’m also not convinced
> that adding weight to only the butt end of the rod
> would reduce sensitivity substantially. The
> stiffness to weight ratio of the blank in front of
> the hand has not changed one bit. As I see it,
> sensitivity is the ability to perceive a impulse
> traveling from the tip through the blank to the
> hand. Since nothing has changed from the tip to
> the hand, I don’t see how sensitivity would
> change that much if any by adding weight behind
> the hand. Just my opinion.
> Norm

100%

The question specifically targeted flipping sticks. Not fly rods, ultra lights, tuna rods, or any other contraption.

Norman's response was spot on

Well done, Norman.

John

Norman Miller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Since nothing has changed from the tip to
> the hand, I don’t see how sensitivity would
> change that much if any by adding weight behind
> the hand. Just my opinion.
> Norm

I can understand how one might come to a conclusion like this, but forgive me if I disagree.

A simple analogy is a crystal glass.

Stand it on a table and tap it and hear it ring.

Next, tape or glue some weights on to the stem of the glass and try the ring tap again. If you had measurement equipment you will find that dampening or weighting of the back end will have an effect on vibration ability throughout the glass. Next hold the glass in your hand over top of the weights and try and tap on it for the ring and it will be even further diminished and dampened even though there is nothing added to the bell portion of the glass itself.

Rods are no different.

A rod is at its maximum sensitivity at the time it is manufactured with nothing on the blank. Each time something is added to the blank whether a guide, thread wrap, epoxy, reel seat, handle/grip materials, butt cap, and yes weights anywhere on the blank will dampen the blanks overall ability to vibrate. No doubt about it. Even the hand holding the rod can measurably reduce rod vibrations.

You can not add weight to an object and expect it to have the same vibration qualities as it would without the added weight. The entire rod blank is a single solid object and what happens on one end has an effect on the other end.

It is the solidity of the object that causes this to happen. The harder it is, the more of an effect it will have. And, the softer the material, the less of an effect it will have.

That's my take on it...

I spent decades of my younger life in sound, sound creation with musical instruments, live sound engineering, and recording of music. Sound and vibrations were my thing back then. Speakers. Microphones. Electronics. Materials resonance in wooden cabinets for speakers and guitars was a big part of it. And bringing it all together. Guitarists loved me! So did blues harmonica players, and female singers... because I could make them sound good.

I'm involved in a project for my daughter in building her a kick butt home theater 7.1 surround sound system right now, and presently have the subwoofer in pieces and presently dampening the wooden cabinet because the manufacturer decided it was cheaper to sell a hollow resonant box which produced a nasally hollow sound, so by dampening the cabinet I am improving the sonic image output of it. I am also replacing the cheap woofer with a much higher quality woofer with higher SPL for improved performance.

By dampening the flat surfaces, it will dampen the resonance of the entire cabinet.

I apply the same knowledge I learned in sound and engineering to how I construct my fishing rods with minimalist approach to every detail so as to not weigh them down with useless materials and unnecessary art junk. Sound and vibrations was my thing. But now retired and still playing around with it.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/2021 12:15PM by Kent Griffith.

good stuff Kent!!

Kent,
Can't argue with your experience.

Therefore it seems to me that the very best rod would be to take a flipping blank, use tape to wrap the reel to the blank, add a guide a bit down the blank for the line - another guide in the middle of the blank and a tip top at the end of the rod and you would have the perfect rod for sensitivity - correct?

This means that one can build a rod in 10 minutes and go fishing.

I do know that setup actually works and it can work very well.

The rod will not win any beauty contests, but it will certainly catch fish.

Best wishes.

Then one would think that by holding a rod at the reel seat you are increasing the mass of the rod by your weight. Therefore a rod held by a lighter person should feel more sensitive than a rod held by a heavier person. The added mass at the back end of the blank for balance is small in comparison to the mass of the person holding the rod. This is analogous to your adding weight to the stem of a crystal glass and then holding the stem of the glass. The person holding the rod in a ‘massive’ mass sink, but we can and do feel the vibrations passing down the rod to our hands.
Norm

As the wave of vibration initiates down the glass it will be unaffected by the weight until it gets to the weights. Then the dampening will alter the frequency as it travels through the glass. The initial tap will still have an identical magnitude with or without weights when measuring at the stem where you would hold it.

I know many hold Rich Forhan in high regard on these boards lets see what he thinks.



Flippin'/Pitchin' - I NEVER add weight to these rods. My 8 ft. flip stiks weigh 5.5 ounces. When you flip - the hand that holds the line MUST transition to the blank at the end of the flip. This puts your left hand well above any balance point in preperation for the hook set.

Tight Line Moving lures - I NEVER add weight to these rods. The rod is always loaded on the retreive which overrides any attempt to balance the rod while fishing.

Slack line Jump lures (jigs/worms) - I use high end - very light blanks- for these techniques, adding weight to an IMX or orther similar blank will not improve its performance on the water - only its feel in the shop.

Finesse lures (spinning) - the reel and hand position on spinning provides for excellent balance for the different finesse techniques.

And ideal builds with typical handles on high end rods are balanced without weight. This specific instance is about a high end light rod with a short customized handle. IMO the short handle is a mistake but the customer is always right. So how do I rectify the feel/balance? Add a touch of weight. Otherwise IMO it would not manipulate well in the hands of the angler who is also young and not fully hardened. I respect what everyone on here has put forth. I definitely respect the theories of those considered to be legends or masters. But if there was a meta build for all types then we would not be customizing anything. We would just be rod assemblers. As different problems arrive we often look to the past and move into the future to solve them. In the case of the specifics of the OP I truly believe the 3/4oz tungsten weight will not have a perceived negative effect however it will have a positive perceived effect with the build as it has been achieved.

That’s his opinion and preference, which I respect. I never switch hands when casting, flipping or pitching. I hold he rod in my right hand and crank with my left. Thus, when flipping my left hand transitions to the reel handle not to the rod, so neither of my hands will be above the presumed balance point. I personally don’t do much flipping these days, and I also don’t add weight to the butt of end of my rods, but that’s my preference. However, I have used other rods that I considered to be tip heavy, and they were not very comfortable to use when flipping, when compared to rods that were balanced to be tip light. Balance certainly does have an effect when flipping. As mentioned many times before, building a custom rod is based on what you prefer, not what some one else prefers. I have no problem with this tenet.
Norm

Kent? Sure, a single tip guide will utilize the the same amount of power from the blank as line running through guides attached along the blank's length ..... IF and it is a huge if. If the line is anchored at the tip. Funny thing about fishing rods though .... they have reels attached to them, and the line is anchored at the reel. Tell ya what ...... do CCS test for the IP of one of your rods. Do it as outlined in the CCS link on this page. Next, do the same test, but instead of hanging the weight from the tip top. attach it to the line on your reel. Only run the line through the tip top, because as you say, guides make no difference in utilizing the blanks power. Now hang the same amount of weight you used doing the CCS test for IP properly, and attach it to the line running through just the tip top. Report back your findings.

With respect to the quotes from Rich Forhan that were posted. With due respect, I only agree with one of those quotes, and that is the quote concerning tight line moving lures. I am in total agreement with that one. As for the others, sorry, he may feel that way, but I don't. Those are simply his opinions, nothing more, nothing less.

Were he the one who posted them I would ask this question. Why must my hand (and for me it would be my right hand) my hand transition to the blank? He says in preparation for the hook set. So setting the hook with just one hand is wrong? Indulge me in the conversation I am having with Mr Forhan. I would then ask Mr Forhan if he is right handed. And if so, I would as if he used right hand retrieve reels. If his answer were yes, then what do I do? Go back to switching hands when I flip and pitch even though not switching hands is a huge benefit when flipping and pitching.

This isn't a cast where switching hands while the bait is in the air, is going to cost you a possibly missed fish. Many many times I have had a bite within seconds of the bait entering the water. Switching hands while flipping or pitching is counter productive, But I would never tell anyone they are doing it incorrectly. I started out flipping and pitching that way, and did so for years. I saw a way of improving the presentation, so I taught myself to do so with the rod in my left hand. Flipping my hand controlling the line follows it to the rod. I keep my fingers either in contact or very close to the line, with them in the position to pick the line back up for another flip. If I get a bite, I set the hook. Sometimes immediately, some times I wait. My hand that was controlling the line goes to the reel handle. I set the hook and I am reeling right away. Casting reels are a winch, and I am using the reel as well as the rod, to pull the fish out of cover. And I am getting it out of the cover as quickly as I can. Not because I have seen the pros do it, or because someone told me it was the right way to do it. I do it because I have learned to do so, from experience.

As far as quote about adding weight to a rod will not improve its' on the water experience. I'll just say that my personal experience has taught me otherwise.

And finally, and despite how it might seem, I really do enjoy the conversation and exchange of ideas, but finally. We each need to realize that our definitions of some words might not be the same as others. Clearly my philosophy for building a rod, is how that rod is going to perform while in use. There are clearly those that feel if you build the most sensitive rod possible, which seems to me that that means, build the lightest rod possible, that the rod's greater ability to transmit vibrations, is going to translate to better on the water performance. And I will never agree with that. The rod may be able to transmit vibrations better, but that doesn't mean it will perform better on the water.

It doesn't always work out that way.

And Norman is exactly right. Weight at the butt doesn't have nearly the same affect as weight ahead of the reel seat.

Wow, never thought people would take someone else's opinion so personal by even calling out the persons name repeatedly . It's all opinions guys , yours is an opinion as are everybody else's . I don't think anybody cares how other people build or fish a rod . If others don't side with your experiences and beliefs who cares.

.. There is more than one way to get from point A to B.

write your own book about rod making.. no plaigerism please..lol.

ben belote Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> write your own book about rod making.. no
> plaigerism please..lol.

I think I shall. "The Millennial's Guide to Making Rods That Slap" Who knows. May get some millennials involved in craft trades.

Humor for Friday.

that,s funny Aaron..i would read it and i,m no millennial..lol.

Millennial.....work....ha ha ha ha ha!

Sorry an subcnscious reaction.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2021 11:31AM by John DeMartini.

It is a serious mistake to assume everyone else uses the same fishing reels, rods and techniques that you do: casting reel rods, closed face spinning reel rods. snatching rods, open-face spinning reel rods, trolling rods, down rigger rods, drop-shot rods, kite rods, worming rods, ice-fishing jig rods, casting rods, dry fly rods - you name it. One size/build does not fit all. Before proclaiming how someone's rod should be built it is necessary to determine exactly how this rod will be used and what features are desirable in the completed rod.

Love this place, just don't do it on a flyrod.