What type of thread is color preserver required on, and what type Is it not required on?

Is it a bad idea to use color preserver on guide wraps, because the epoxy will not penetrate the thread and it is not as strong?

Thanks

It is not required on any thread unless you want the original thread color preserved. If you do want the original color preserved CP is required on all threads not marked "no CP" or something similar to indicate that CP is not required. Usually "noCP" threads don't have the same sheen as regualr threads with CP used.

You'll get arguments about strength. Regardless of whether CP costs some strength or not, wraps with CP are plenty strong. I almost always use CP and do not experience any strength problems. I do believe wraps are easier to remove if CP is used, however.

If you are not familiar with the "Forhan Locking Wrap," check out the article in the Library (which is acccessed using the "button" above).

Think on it this way. The thread wraps bind the guides to the blank regardless of the thread wrap finish which adds minimal binding strength. The finish's job is to protect the wraps so the wraps can do their thing for a long time without fraying, rotting, unraveling, etc.

Donald La Mar Wrote:
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> Think on it this way. The thread wraps bind the
> guides to the blank regardless of the thread wrap
> finish which adds minimal binding strength. The
> finish's job is to protect the wraps so the wraps
> can do their thing for a long time without
> fraying, rotting, unraveling, etc.


Well said. Both CP and epoxy also serve a secondary role to deter guide shift but it's the thread that binds the guides to the blank.

..............

I've wrapped some micros pretty sloppily, sort of loose on the blank, and after epoxy they have never moved. And cannot be moved with reasonable force. It is my opinion that it's a lot like plywood and composites.. Both components work together to produce a product stronger than either by itself. If it were not so then one could move guides a little after epoxy just as one can do for final alignment before epoxy. OK, folks, take your shots.

You can't move them once CP is applied, either. The actual test measurements were provided in a long ago edition of RodMaker and in either case you'll deform the guide before you'll get it to move or shift.

..........

No doubt that CP tightens up and solidifies the thread even without epoxy applied but one of the most appealing benefits of CP to me is what Michael noted which is the ease of removing guides if you decided to do so . I never used CP on my early builds because I always used 'No CP' thread but after a while I decided to wrap with just nylon & Fuji's Ultra poly thread which CP was recommended for .

I wanted to see if I could notice the so called better look and sheen . What I discovered was that CP has more benefits than just retaining thread appearance in regular thread , I immediately noticed it greatly tightened up the wraps , so much so that I felt you could actually fish a rod just with CP and as long as the thread didn't come into contact with things that caused abrasion it would last indefinitely .

I didn't feel as confident in this with no CP applied , I felt just thread would last but not as long as if CP was applied. While removing guides is easy enough even when not using CP I found guide removal far easier and cleaner removing guides if CP was used and I don't have to explain why it's easier we all know why it's easier. On builds that I think I may eventually change or alter guide layout's on I always use CP now but on builds that I know will never be altered I don't.

OK, I’ll assume the role of devil’s advocate. Personally, I do not see the point and do not care for CP but recognize and appreciate others' preference to use it. There is no yea or nay, right or wrong but simply personal preference. I suspect the biggest issue concerning the use of CP is cosmetics; unless attempting to create a certain effect, CP is basically required for regular nylon (polyester?) thread to retain the “on-spool” color. I suppose it could possibly even retain the color of NCP thread better as well. As for strength, previous replies are correct = the thread itself is what secures the guide to the blank and, in a perfect world, does not need anything else. But we do not live in a perfect world and thread wraps benefit immensely from a protective coating to hold and protect them from abrasion and UV amongst others.
Coming from the composite industry though, everything was geared around the optimum bond strength with very little concern directed toward cosmetics. To me, attempting to bond the fabric (thread) to the blank with one material and then apply a (hopefully) compatible coat with a different protective material seems counterproductive; why not simply use one material to accomplish all?
I have one customer who is neglectful and abusive of the rods I build for him and, thus, his rods require stripping and replacing the guides ~ every 2 years. I have never experienced difficulty in removing the guides, wraps and subsequent epoxy from the blank. But maybe I will take chris’ advice and initially apply a coat of CP to the (re)wraps of his particular rods to see if it makes removal later even easier!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

If you goal is the greatest possible wrap "strength" you will use nothing else but PermaGloss. Epoxy is weak compared.

.........

Yes you can move them once CP is applied. They are not solidly, immovably, set. A little movement to make a final alignment is easily done after CP is applied. But after epoxy, no. And my experience is that wraps with CP are more easily removed than wraps without CP, but that will get arguments against it too, in spite of its obvious logic.

I use the u-40 cp I like it alot, I use to use the gudebrod orginal formula, stuff was the best Imo. Not sure why they changed the formula, I use cp for my normal nylon. I find it has to be less than a year old or it leaves alot of blotches. People had told me it's from the threads not being pack tight enough but it wasn't the case for me. I put three thin coats works great and haven't had it give me any strength problems. Make sure you wipe of the excess or it may dry milky. I mostly build steelhead float rods. I find the cp coated threads look amazing after epoxy finish.

Tom,
I have wondered about the structural strength of typical thread epoxy with its 1-to-1 mix ratio versus structural laminating epoxy with its basically 1-4 ratio; they are obviously two different animals. I am surprised to learn you consider PG, a atmospheric-moisture curing urethane “stronger” than the majority of catalyzed, two-part thread epoxies. I would have lost money betting otherwise. Personally, I have experienced many more failures with PG than with a number of different thread epoxies employed in the same manner / situation.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Roger,
As you can see with the many comments above - that over and over again, it is posted that the guides are easier to remove from the blank if CP is applied before the coating of thread coating epoxy.

Hence, the inference is that if one uses CP before applying thread coating epoxy - the locking strength of the thread, cp and epoxy is less - than if it is the thread and epoxy.

i.e.
If a person can remove guides more easily from a blank, it is self evident the the bond is not as great.

Thus, if you apply CP before applying fishin epoxy - the overall locking strength will be less than if no CP is used with the thread epoxy.

----------------
Having said that:
Over the years with thousands and thousands of rods being built, I have never experienced, nor I have heard from other builders that a Guild installation has failed due to insufficient locking with the combination of thread, cp, and epoxy - or the combination of thread, and epoxy. So, the simple fact appears to be that although - in reality the bond to the rod blank of the combined thread, cp and epoxy is less than the bond created by thread and epoxy - both methods supply plenty of strength for long term use of the rod with no guide shifting.

Take care

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
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> If you goal is the greatest possible wrap
> "strength" you will use nothing else but
> PermaGloss. Epoxy is weak compared.
>
> .........
Does this take the place of epoxy and CP, all in one?

Thanks for clarifying Roger
Does the color preserver prevent the threads from fading from UV light, or is it mainly to brighten the thread before epoxy is applied?

PermaGloss does not prevent the color of the thread from changing. It builds much less than epoxy, so has an entirely different appearance. Looks sort of like old varnish wraps on bamboo fly rods. CP does not prevent threads from fading due to UV, nor does Epoxy.

Roger,
Just think that CP is a sealant that seals the color of the threads. It does nothing with respect to UV light and its effect on anything.

Best wishes

Mark Talmo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tom,
> I have wondered about the structural strength of
> typical thread epoxy with its 1-to-1 mix ratio
> versus structural laminating epoxy with its
> basically 1-4 ratio; they are obviously two
> different animals. I am surprised to learn you
> consider PG, a atmospheric-moisture curing
> urethane “stronger” than the majority of
> catalyzed, two-part thread epoxies. I would have
> lost money betting otherwise. Personally, I have
> experienced many more failures with PG than with a
> number of different thread epoxies employed in the
> same manner / situation.

Our finishing epoxies are also a 1 to 3, or 4, ratio. The formulators add "fillers" to them to make them a 1 to 1 ratio for ease of use.

Permagloss is hard as a rock, but will not crack or chip. I never seen any failure of Permagloss in any condition.

.........

roger wilson Wrote:
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> Roger,
> Just think that CP is a sealant that seals the
> color of the threads. It does nothing with
> respect to UV light and its effect on anything.
>
> Best wishes


Thanks, my take away from all this is there is no need to use it unless you want to be able to remove your guides easier in the future.
I thought it somehow kept the thread from fading from the sun over time



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/05/2021 12:16PM by roger gleason.

There is a need to use it if you want to retain the actual color of regular nylon thread as it appears on the spool. It will not create an inherently weak wrap.

The only way to keep the thread from fading is to prevent the sun from reaching the thread, which no CP or epoxy or PG is going to do.

.........