I've read and participated in a few threads where people have wondered what things like the thread for guide wraps, and the finish to cover that thread, actually add to the weight of a rod. So I figured I'd post results for that kind of thing, and some other particulars, on the build I just finished on one of the new RX10 Eternity blanks. The blank is an ETEC72M-SS. It weighed 1.95 oz. I built it as a spinning rod, using a split rear grip.

For components, I used two Alps/ Forecast FB2.625SCC fighting butts as the grips. The one I used as the butt grip, the other as the rear grip. To make the fighting butt a rear grip I just cut off the small tenon, and mounted it backwards. I used an Alps TRS17-B trim ring between the rear grip and the reel seat. The reel seat is a Forecast GS17SKC-B with an accompanying cork insert. I trimmed the thread barrel 3/8". and finished the end off with a rubberized cork composite ring that I cut to a thickness of .3/8" and turned it down to math the O.D. of the thread barrel. Three, 13mm black rubber winding checks to finish off the ends of the grips, completes that type of stuff. I didn't weigh those items individually, but once I had them all epoxied in place, it brought the weight of the rod up to 3.50 oz.

Time for the guides and the thread to hold them on. I built the rod with a Fuji KR concept guide train, using Fuji T2 black titanium guides with SIC rings. They're labeled as being slim SIC rings. I don't know how thick a normal SIC ring is, but the rings in the T2s are slimmer than a guide of the same size, with an Alconite ring. I really love the T2s, but they're pricey. Guide sizes and numbers as follows : KL-H 20 (1), KL-H 10 (1), KL-H 5.5M (1), KB 5.5 (1), KB 5 (1), and finally KT 5 (6). Tip top is a matching Fuji KG Arowana. 4.5 tube, size 5 ring. The 11 guides + tip top weigh 4.5 grams. I can't tell you what the hook keeper weighed, I just include it because it required thread wraps to hold it on.

Weighing the rod and guides at the same time, brought the total weight to 3.65 oz. As for the wraps .... all wraps have a 3 thread trim band on one end. Two 1/2" wide thread wraps between the rear grips, two 1/2" wide thread wraps to hold on the hook keeper, and the wraps on the guides themselves brought the weight of the rod to 3.70 oz. Can you imagine? All that thread only added .05 oz. or 1.42 grams. Next, I weighed the rod after applying the finish. I use U-40 LS Supreme High Build. Total weight of the rod after the finish was applied ....... drum roll please ............. 3.80 oz. The finish added .1 oz. or 2.8 grams to the total weight of the rod.

Since one of the threads I referenced earlier had to do with whether or not an angler could tell a difference in just 2 grams of weight, I checked and marked the balance point of the rod prior to applying the finish. The finish moved the balance point of the rod about 3/8" from its' balance point prior to having the finish applied. And .... are you ready for this? I could ever so slightly feel it. I was actually surprised that I could feel it. I can't say if it affected the sensitivity of the rod enough to feel it. I played around extensively with the rod checking its' sensitivity prior to putting on the finish, but the finish isn't completely dry yet, and I'm not about to mess around with it until it's at least, dry to the touch.

So we'll see ..... I will be surprised if I can tell a difference, but I've already been surprised once, so .....

One thing is for certain though .... despite my findings, I will never worry about how much weight I am adding to a rod in thread and finish . They are kinda must have things .... ya know?

I'll be taking the rod out on its' maiden voyage tomorrow morning. I'm hoping my first fish with it is either a smallmouth or largemouth bass, but if it's a walleye I'm good with that. Just please don't let it be a catfish..... I hate how they slime your line. lol

David,
What you didn't say was how thick a finish application your used.
I only build fly rods - and I strive to have the wrap finish as flat as possible - i.e. no football shaped wraps - and just enough finish to produce a smooth surface.
Some builders thing football wraps look cool. Just wondering.
Herb

Herb, I try and get the finish as flat as I can. I always like seeing how nice and flat, (and thin looking) the guides look in the photo section of this site. I strive for that kind of thing. With that said, there are 4 wraps, the smaller guides, that look a bit like a football. I'm not real happy with them, but I've caused more harm than good when I have played with the finish too much in the past.

Normally I only mix my finish for 2 minutes, but I read, I think it was on this forum, that finish should be mixed for 4 minutes, so I that's what I did this time. Wish I hadn't because the added mixing introduced more bubbles into the mixture. Because of that I hit the finish with a heat gun to help remove some of the bubbles. For me, using a heat gun to remove bubbles is a mistake. I'm not that fast at applying finish, and by the time I get to the smaller guides the finish is thickening up and again, for me, it causes problems.

I rotate the rod by hand when I first apply finish. I let it sag and wick off the excess, then rotate it 180 degrees and repeat the process. I do that 3 times then put it on the dryer. This is my first build in over a year, and I just didn't want to mess it up.

But yes, I try and get a flat smooth finish. It just looks better that way to me.

Thank you David.

I was in a hurry to try out a new UL blank I got. It came with carbon grips and the only reel seat I had that matched was a Fuji DPSM20. I was left feeling like I added so much weight I already ruined the build. So much I have held off and thinking of going to 16H, 8H, 5.5M over the 20H, 10H I have taped on now (like that will matter, huh!). However the rod is still tip heavy so there is that to think about.

Never cared for the skeleton seats and split grips but I think I'm going to have to go that route on the other blanks. Same with the Minima guides and maybe even permagloss (doesn't sound like much savings there though).

Hard to say how much it all matters. Funny how I think to myself that an extra 1.5 ounces is a deal breaker on a reel but I'm not seeming to care about it as much with reels seats and grips. I do have another of the same blank so maybe I'll try all the weight savings tricks on it and compare them.

Best of luck on your rod's maiden voyage. I have always considered it good luck to do well with a new rod on its first outing. If you don't mind, I'd love to hear your thoughts on how it compares to the NFC MB736 after you fish it.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

David,
Put on your reel of choice and let us know the total weight of the fishing rod in your hand, with the fully loaded reel on, the line threaded through the guides and a lure tied onto the end of the line.

This is what you are fishing with all day.

So, the rod is a part of the package, but in your case - what is the total weight of the fishing package that you cast with all day long?

For example, if you put on an 8 oz reel, a 2 oz lure, you will be fishing with a 15-16 oz rod setup in your hand all day.

Does a gram saved here and there mean much. Maybe, but in the scope of the total weight of the fishing package in the fisher persons hand - maybe not so much.

Best wishes.

Bummer that a CCS was not done on the bare blank and then done again after the build , that would be the most telling. Amazing you got the new Eternity blank so fast and finished a build already . Hope you enjoy it .

I would of loved to try one if it came in the 8 foot length but no such luck.

David,
Your email is hidden.
Please email me just say "Hi.
Herb

Chris, I did CCS on it, but the blank wasn't bare. I was getting ready for static load so I had the grips, reel seat, and the tip top on it. Oh, and some tubing that I use to hold the guides on. I came up with an IP of 567 grams, and an AA of 74 - 75. It tested 30 grams lighter than the numbers Batson provided. I don't know if that's because they tested a bare blank, variations from blank to blank, or something about the way I tested it. I'm leaning more towards the latter than either of the former. I'll do a test on it after I fish it a time or two. As far as getting the blank so fast, I got it from Utmost Enterprises. They're just down the street from Batson, and Carol and the folks at Utmost don't play around. My blank shipped the day I finalized the order. I would have gotten the build done sooner, but I had to wait for the KB 5 to get here. It got here Thursday.

Russell, the point of this thread isn't to champion the idea of saving as much weight on a build as is possible. I will never have that first and foremost in my mind. I can't really say it's an after thought, because I look at the weight of the blank when I am choosing a blank to build on. But other than that, I could really care less what the finished rod weighs. The only reason I posted total rod weights in my initial post is to keep track of how much weight specific things added.

When I said I could feel the difference that just the weight of the finish made. It was strictly from a balance perspective. And as I said, it felt ever so slightly different. Since I'm a kid at heart, and the finish is pretty much dry to the touch, I played around testing the sensitivity of the rod. It feels no different than it did before I put the finish on it. And I studied the balance point a little closer It's closer to being 1/4" different than it is 3/8".

Again, my concern is for how the rod performs when I am using it. Not when it's in the rod locker of my boat. As I've said before ..... if weight has a reason, then it isn't a bad thing. At least not in my opinion, and I'll not be convinced otherwise. It's like a rod built for maximum casting distance. It may be able to cast a mile, but I'm guessing I wouldn't want to try and boat flip a 4 lb bass with it.

In your case and what you described, the reel seat you mentioned may be heavier, but, and it really depends on hand size, it's probably more comfortable to hold. Is the added weight of a larger seat going to make a difference in your fishing comfort? In the past I believe you've said that you have trouble with your hands? My guess is that a larger diameter reel seat would be more comfortable. You also mentioned possibly going from a 20, 10, 5.5 reduction train to a 16, 8, 5.5 reduction train. The 20 will handle heavier or sitter lines better, and while I don't have a 16 and an 8 to weigh, I doubt there is more than a 1 - 1.5 gram difference in their combined weight. Will your on the water performance suffer in going from a 20/ 10, to a 16/ 8, just to save 1.5 grams in total rod weight? If so, that would be a bad trade off in my book. I have 11 guides on the rod I just built. I had it set up with 10 and could have definitely gotten away with the 10. It was close, so I opted for the extra guide, because I believe it will help me on the water. And I will rest better in my mind.

If you go with the Minima guides over the Fuji's, you'll definitely feel the difference, and your on the water performance won't suffer. It will improve. That is a weight savings that shows. The Minima guides weigh about the same as the T2's I used on my build. And they do make a difference, but unless I build the same rod that just uses different guides for somebody, I'll most likely never know. Knowing if the added expense of the T2s is justified, just isn't something that chews at me.

Roger, I can do as you suggest, but It's not something I am concerned with. I am the same way with reels that I am with rods. I don't care how much it weighs, I just care how it performs on the water. If the weight hurts my on the water performance from a comfort standpoint, then I'll be hunting a lighter reel.

Anyway .... I guess if you want to shave every bit of weight you can, I'm all for it. Just as long as it doesn't hurt the performance of the rod while it's in use. And the word performance means different things to different people.

Herb, sent you an e mail. Subject title is just "Hi"

I used skeleton seats on a lot of my casting builds and don't notice any type of discomfort when fishing them all day. The spinning rods I have done with skeleton seats are uncomfortable to fish with all day, so I quit using them and have been using Fuji VSS or TVS and Alps Rapid RPD16-IS. The AT Arrow seats look like they would be comfortable also. The skeletons are lighter but not comfortable. Like Russell and Roger have pointed out, you put a 7 to 8 oz reel on, and the light rod doesn't seem to be all that important. It is really a balancing act of rod a reel. A light rod is going to benefit, in most cases, with a light reel. Something you can use all day with artificial lures covering a lot of water. Changing stripper ring sizes to make a rod lighter really isn't going to help because it is too close the fulcrum (reel) to notice. Running guides near the tip are going to be noticeable. I make casting rods that weigh in at under 3 oz (2.6 to 2.8) by using #1 light blank, #2 natural cork split grips, #3 Fuji SK real seats and #4 micro guides. Micro guides like Fuji RV6, KB5, KB4 and KT4, the frame material does not make a difference in weight but there is a very slight difference in ring weight with Alconite being the lightest. I always use aluminum winding checks and don’t do weaves. I try to use just 2 coats of high build. A Tiger wrap between the butt and the rear grip will add about .1 oz to the build. If you put a Shimano Core, Aldabaron or a Daiwa Steez on it you come up with a rod and reel that is under a ½ lbs. On spinning rods in the 7’ range it is the same formula except KLH 20, KLH 10, KH 5. I only use EVA on my spinning rods, but natural cork is lighter with graphite coming out somewhere in between, and I am coming in at 3.5 oz to 4 oz. When you compare the rods, we are building now to the stuff that came out 20-30 years ago we are so much lighter now without even trying. Anything that is under 4 oz is very light. The problem with spinning reels is that you cannot find one that can spool 10 lbs mono (2000 to 3000 sized reels) that weights less than 6 oz. The best you can do is make a balanced rod that is comfortable to fish and performs as expected or better.

Something is not right here, either witih my new blank of the same model as this as I got 487 grams and 79 AA, spec if I'm reading it right is 75-466. My weight was 1.55 against a spec of 1.73, which surprised me as they normally are very close to the spec. This is the highest power 7-2 I've ever seen at a weight under 1.75.

David, any chance you typed M when you meant MH?

CCS power and action do not change by adding guiides, at least mine never has.

I measured the rod (blank) twice, and got the same values both times within 1 AA and a less than 12.5 grams.

If this build comes together as mine usually do it will weigh close to 3.6 oz with a DPSM seat, burl cork split seat, and almost the same guide set as mentioned.

AA will not change from blank to finished rod. ERN will drop, marginally depending on how much component weight (guides mostly) the finished rod has to carry.

...........

In the next couple days I'll do a complete recheck of my data. I think it's ok, but one never knows, something could have gone wrong.

I should have been more clear I was interested in the speed aspects of before and after the build and if it can be measured.

[www.rodbuilding.org]





I now see that it's not possible . CCS is only useful for bare blank comparisons .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/2021 05:24PM by chris c nash.

Michael, you're specs are for the ETES72M. The spinning version of the blank. I built my rod on an ETEC72M. The casting version. I just built it as a spinning rod. I used the casting version because I wanted the extra power the casting version offered. As far as my blank's weight goes, my blank came in a little less than 1/10th of an oz under what Batson has the weight listed at. AA was dead on for what they posted.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/2021 06:36PM by David Baylor.

Mick - David has the casting blank ETEC72MSS (IP= 597 gm, AA = 75), you have the spinning blank ETES72MSS (IP = 466gm, AA =75). Both of your CCS numbers are pretty close to those published (+/- 5%).
Norm

Got it, thanks. "CCS is only useful for bare blank comparisons." Not true.

I did what Roger asked. I mounted the reel on the rod and weighed it. The reel is a Shimano Ultegra 3000 HGFC. It's filled with 8# Seaguar Tatsu fluorocarbon line. It came in at 12.75 oz. I didn't tie a lure or jig on the end. It's a slack and semi slack line rod, so lure weight doesn't really play a role in how it will feel while fishing it.

Suffice it to say, the heaviest bait combination I'll ever fish it with is a 1/2 oz tube jig head, dressed with a 3 1/2" tube. And that's just when I head to Lake Erie. Otherwise it's going to have a 3/16 - 1/4 tube jig head with either a regular old 3 1/2" tube, or a 3 1/4" craw/ tube combination that I make myself.

It's a pretty sweet little bait. I took the front half of a Yum Crawbug and glued the tube section of a 3 1/2" tube bait to each other, and made an injection mold of it. I make it in two sizes. The 3 1/4" size mentioned, and a 4 1/4" size. I can adjust the thickness of the head by using different length rod inserts. A thicker head and firmer plastic for flipping or pitching, and a thinner head and softer plastic for use on a tube jig head.

If you think rod building is addictive, and it definitely is. You oughta see how addictive making your own soft baits is. It may be even worse. lol



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/2021 08:01PM by David Baylor.

You can run a speed comparison (CCF) on the bare blank and the finished rod.

................

David, just to be clear, my post was a little "tongue in cheek" about how ridiculous my thought process is going.

I have a 1 oz blank that I turn it into a 3 oz build with just the reel seat and grips. End of the world. Yet I do it because I've never built with split grips and/or skeleton seat and therefore think I don't like them. If it was a 6 oz blank adding 2 oz for the seat and grips wouldn't seem like such a big deal. However, an extra 1.5 oz on the same size reel is such a concern I'm willing to spend a more on the reel. In other words I'm an idiot:)

Almost like I'd jump through hoops and spend extra to keep it light only to spend extra to add weight to the butt to balance it afterwards. Did I mention I'm an idiot?

I'm after peacocks and members of the cichlid family. Then don't hit plastics (maybe a curly tail on a spinnerbait if lucky). Live bait is best. I'm thinking of trying weighted Clouser/deceiver flys on spinning gear.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.