I would like to try my first ever spiral guide wrap and had a few questions.

Background:
I have read up on the different methods and the principal of how the line should flow through the guides. I have three rods ready for guides, an SJ736, MB765 NEO cut down to 6'9", and an MB 7108 for flipping Coosa grass and river brush. Fishing Alabama bass, Largemouth, and the occasional hybrid.

Questions:
1. In your opinions what is the best method of spiral for my first one? (Simple spiral, PH Easy spiral...)

2. Are Forhan wraps critical since guides will be in awkward positions when stored on deck?

3. Do the wraps always rotate opposite of reel handle side, or does it not matter?

4. Is a spiral guide wrap overkill for this light of species?

Thank you in advance. I am looking forward to trying something new this weekend.
Aaron Petersen

Great question, being a relative newbie, I have tried 4 methods outlined in this forum. All of them worked. The KG method is what I use today and am very pleased with it. Forhan locking wraps, I say why not!! Everything to gain, nothing to loose. Kent shared with me to keep the rotation of guides going the same side as reel handle, with that being said, I put a left handed reel on right side guide rotation and had zero issues. Good luck and glad your part of the "crew".

1. They are all manageable. My first were 90 degree transition spirals. Place the guides where you normally would. Butt guide on top, second at 90 and the rest at 180. They work well and still are the rods that spend the most time in my hand. I’ve since moved on to a slow spiral but don’t feel the need to change my early builds.

2. No, but they certainly don’t hurt anything.

3. I rotate toward the reel handle so that when I lay the rod on the deck the transition guides aren’t pushed into not the deck. I lay the rods down with the reel handle pointing up.

4. The benefits of a spiral wrapped rod are the same across the board. You are choosing a blank that will be loaded deeply at certain times when fighting the fish, so the stability of the spiral wrapped rod will have a chance to show its self.

Thank you for the answers.

Currently I am leaning toward the Cagey Hook method due to being so well documented on the boards by Kent. Since I have three I may try that, Tom's, and Norm's style of spirals and see what feels best to me. I have never fished a spiral rod so I am excited.

I'm a newbie but love the simple spirals I have done. I tried the Pete Holloway but didn't like the way the guides were loaded. Probably operator error but went back to the simple and it works for me.

You won’t go wrong with Kent’s method. It’s pretty much the culmination of the direction I was heading with the way I’ve been wrapping mine.

What issue was his article in? I need to see about getting that issue. I only recently subbed to the magazine.

It was in December 2020 issue.

If you want to try a Cagey Hook Wrap I can work with you on it.

And good to see you posting again Jeff! Been worried about you being so quiet lately. And Jeff, you are right you don't really experience any loss of performance switching reel handle sides for casting purposes, but when the rod loads is when you notice the line flow alignment is not as straight because the rod is being used for the opposite of the guide alignment setup and this tends to pull the line out of ideal, but the line redirecting is minimal and as you said you don't really notice it, but to me is less than ideal.

This is the problem all commercially made off the shelf spiral wrapped rods have as well. They are made for a balanced operation between the polarities while mine is dialed in for one side or the other for greater precision of line flow towards most ideal.

Just me, but I like the Forhan revolver style because it keeps the line straight as possible and off the blank. I also never lay my reel flat on deck and it will rest on the handle, up out of the sand, mud or dirt on the deck (wade fishing) so spiral for right hand retrieve and right hander goes to the left and opposite for left handers. To each his own but I do have reason why.

MudHole youtube video said the same thing about spiral wrapping based on how a rod lays on a deck, but I never build one for how it lays on a deck. I always aimed for guide alignment for performance issues more than anything else. And, I wanted straightest line flow when a rod loads up which is to me when it counts the most in reducing line flow resistance to its most minimal level possible.

I'm adding the link to the MudHole video to this comment: [youtu.be]

The discussion on which side to wrap to begins at 31:15. He goes on to say that to him there is no performance reason to wrap to one side or the other, and on this we disagree as my image below clearly shows that yes there is a "better performance side" based on which hand the rod is in when it loads up and how a fisherman uses the rod to fight a fish is not straight up and down but often off to the side and so the spiral wrap is chosen based in pure physics for which way the line flow straightens out the best based on how it is used, not how it lays on a deck. But his comment about building a fishing rod for how it lays on the deck occurs at 32:15.

I suppose people can build custom rods for any reason they so choose including how artistic it looks hanging on a wall.

Keep listening to video after 33 minute mark... and at 47:20 he draws on the board his "how to" with all 90 degree side loaded guides through the transition. I could not believe what I was seeing or hearing. Contrary to physics and well constructed spiral wrapped rods!

On the rod shown below, please notice NO side loaded guides through entire transition guides. Line flow under load is where it is SUPPOSED to be either in the top center or bottom center of each guide so there is no torquing on the rod blank or forces trying to rip guides off the rod blank as the video shows. My spiral wrapped rods do not twist and perform flawlessly. I spent 25 years learning how to do it so it turns out like this every time based on each rod's unique bend characteristics contributing to the performance of line flow under load for that particular rod.





Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/03/2021 08:07PM by Kent Griffith.

Kent,
I have already stated in a previous post (with your same photo) how well you did with the placement of the spiraled guides / line path = that is how it should be under load = good job. Is it possible to show a photo of the same rod and its line path without a load? Additionally, I noticed, in the photo, the line path PAST the tip top coming right back towards the reel which does not seem to be a typical line path while actually fighting a fish unless high-sticking is employed to the max. I am here to learn.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Thanks Mark. I am holding on to the line by hand to load it to an approximate 90 degree vertical load situation. And in my opinion the line flow through the guides would be the same if I loaded it with a vertical weight straight up and down. Fighting a fish would be a combination of many load angles from the left to straight up and down vertical and to the right side as well. Line flow through guides changes on direction of pull, so I align the guides for the straight up and down load.

I will try and get a photo of it straight.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2021 08:33AM by Kent Griffith.

Aaron Petersen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Questions:
> 1. In your opinions what is the best method of
> spiral for my first one? (Simple spiral, PH Easy
> spiral...)
>

To me the best method is one geared for performance only. A method geared for straightening out line flow as rod loads up.

Easy spirals do not do this because the bend in the rod is not taken into account and used for the spiral which happens right out of the gate closer to the reel where the blank is thickest meaning more angular bends in line as it wraps around the blank. Straightening line flow back there is more difficult. But that is where most methods concentrate on doing the spiral wrap and you will hear comments like "I want to get around the rod as fast as possible" and to me this is a mistake.

As you can see from my rods, I skip past the thickest part of the blank and use the natural taper of the blank so my line flies past it further out and does need spiraling. I shoot straight past it. Problem solved. Just let the rod get out of the way of line!

You can choose to go easy, but you may not be satisfied with the results. Jeff on the forum here tried several methods he read about here and was not thrilled with the results. I drove over to his house and took a look at them and understood why. So I showed him a different way and he seems pleased with the results. But achieving the ultimate build in your first attempt is reaching for the stars to some degree. It can be done with guidance and help along the way, but for each builder it is a learning process as it was for me that took some 25 plus years to finally reach the end of the road and goal posts to a point where I could go no further with the limitations of the materials.

To me the loaded rod and line have to come together naturally and guides be placed where this happens. But most spiral wrappers are actually redirecting the line flow in ways that are not what the line wants to do. And it took me a long time to get it dialed in how the tight straight line flows into a specific place on a rod blank. If you look at my images, look at how the tight straight line from the reel is aimed into the 180's further out where the bend begins to exceed 10% off straight. Right in there is where it comes together. While most spiral wrappers never get this. They run the 180's all the way back down the blank to where they did their spiral around the thickest part of the blank closer to the reel.

Completely different approaches to achieve the same goal but with differing results. If you take the simple or easy way like Jeff did, then you may not be thrilled with the results. I know I was not with where I began doing it back in the mid 90's. But I am very happy with where it is at today, but it is not simple nor easy. It is most definitely more advanced, but easy enough to learn. Jeff seems to have gotten it after being showed once, and given an example to examine and fish with and learn from.

So to answer your question it is really up to you. What do you want? Do you want a performance rod, or simple and easy less than ideal? That's my take on it...


> 2. Are Forhan wraps critical since guides will be
> in awkward positions when stored on deck?
>

I have no problems or issues with how mine lay on a deck. And I use the smallest micro guides and minimal thread wrapping that stops at the end of the foot. No need to run thread off guide foot and onto rod blank where it does nothing of value.

> 3. Do the wraps always rotate opposite of reel
> handle side, or does it not matter?
>

It does matter if performance is an issue to you. I have learned from more than 25 years of experience that I wrap to the side the handle is on because of how I fight a fish. I build spiral wraps for the load and so I had to take into account which hand holds the rod under load and how is it fished and this lead me to find that one side works better for line flow under load than the other side.

Don't build rods for how they lay on the deck. That is the same as building a rod for how it looks hanging on a wall. Useless. Build for pure fishing performance only in my opinion. And if performance matters then so to does the side the wrap is installed on. One way works best, the other way is less than ideal but still works as Jeff noted.

I to have used rods with spiral opposite the handle, but I can tell you it nags at me and bugs me, but it does still work.


> 4. Is a spiral guide wrap overkill for this light
> of species?
>

What species? Regardless I'd have to say no. Spiral wraps work on any level of rod.


> Thank you in advance. I am looking forward to
> trying something new this weekend.
> Aaron Petersen

It could take more than weekend to dial in an advanced spiral wrap! Took me more than 25 years to get it right. 2 days would be a miracle! Unless you go with simple and easy.

There are no side loaded guides on the Simple Spiral method.

..............

And we are accused of not sweating the details.

I'm a new builder for sure so I'm really asking more than anything... but in my mind and when I played around with it a few times it seems to me anything other than a simple MUST side load several guides even if it's a little it happens over several guides which to me would be worse. Then we are somewhere closer on the spectrum to the traditional casting setup? I can't really see but to me it looks like Kent's 3rd guide is side loaded or has to be. Maybe I'm wrong



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2021 12:49PM by Al Jones.

Its not. It is tweaked carefully into position so that with a straight vertical 90 degree load the line flow under load flows right across the top dead center of the guide. None of the guides are locked down until they pass the static load test showing line flow accuracy.

This is the type of thing a spiral wrap builder does not want to see:



Commercial kast king rod:



Here is another commercially available spiral wrapped rod from Uribe the RiverSide 2 rod:



And this is what MudHole teaches as seen in their tutorial video:



No matter what the method chosen, side loading should be eliminated.

Kent, how can I build a spiral wrapped rod like the ones you've shown above?

You can buy the article from Tom for December issue of 2020 and send me an email and let's get started! We can work on it together each step of the way.

Here is a straight image of the rod above. And keep in mind the guide alignment I use is specifically aligned for a straigtened line flow under load of about 90 degree loading. So any deviation from that particular load bend in the rod changes the guide alignment.

I do not align transition guides on a straight rod so keep this in mind. Also keep in mind that the view of line flow on a spiral wrapped rod in straight position changes with how the rod is rotated so it looks different from every angle.

But one thing is clear, most spiral wrappers construct their entire 180 degree spiral closer to the reel and usually in less than 2 feet of rod length, while on my rods I stretch the spiral transition out to nearly 2/3 of of rod blank length and when a rod like this is cast, it is a no load situation of line flow through the guides and casts equally as well as any standard rod with guides on top. Building a spiral wrap in my opinion does not increase casting distance and is constructed for load performance improvements only. That's my take on it anyway.

So my guides move into alignment as rod loads up with a fish and that is what I am aiming for which is quite different than most methods of spiral wrapping. I like to use the analogy that less advanced spiral wrapped rods are like flying the Wright brothers plane, but spiral wrapping to the n'th degree perfectly dialed in is more like flying an F-18 by comparison. Just ask Jeff!



Another issue... I am not really spiraling anything. People who build traditional spiral wrapped rods are actually spiraling the line flow around the thickest portion of the blank closest to the reel. I don't do that. I came to realize that while holding a rod looking at it towards the tip that in 2D I am actually holding a triangle that gets thinner towards the top.

My line actually passes the blank straight and in no way am I really spiraling anything. I let the natural shape and taper of the rod allow the line to pass it straight further out aimed into the entry point of the 180's a particular location different with each rod because no two rods bend the same. So I do not have excesses 180's running most of the length of my rods in places where they do not have to be because of bunching up the spiral transition into too small of space back towards the reel.

And this is why I chose to not call my method a true spiral wrap because it is not really a spiral at all. Its a straight shot past the blank into a hook shape so I spelled out my initials KG as Cagey and simply called it a hook wrap. Just a different way of accomplishing the same thing as a spiral wrap, but in my opinion more efficient at doing it with less line flow friction both loaded and unloaded.

Another difference in my method is seen where the line crosses the blank as X marks the spot at the center of the blank where the line crosses. In the images above you can see there is no guide at that location. I use to do this as do a lot of other spiral wrap builders as a method of raising the line off the blank at the crossover spot.

I realized over time doing it that way did not let me straighten out the line flow as well as I wanted it to be and so I changed to using a balancing act of a guide before and after that X marks the spot and allow the line to flow closer to the blank to achieve straighter line flow for both casting and reeling in a fish.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2021 03:36PM by Kent Griffith.