All very intriguing! I emailed Tom about the article so hopefully I can get my hands on it shortly.

One question tho. How do you go about determining guide size for the stripper and transition guides?

This may draw some heat, but honestly, I look at it this way... the line flow out of the reel is practically straight. So I have been able to reduce the guides down to a minimalist level. Quite often I use only 2 sizes and sometimes 3. Obviously I use the largest for the stripper and can get away with keeping the rest of them all the same to the tip. Casts like a rocket. No issues at all. You can use what you want really, just keep in mind the taller the guide the less straight line flow will be. Let the line flow closer to the blank and there will be less line flow redirecting.

I generally purchase the Fuji BLAG series and sizes 4, 4.5, 5, 5.5, and 6 and that's it along with matching tips. And I prefer the smallest for sleekest look and tightest tolerances of line flow closest to the blank.

[www.fujitackle.eu]

Bruce, send me an email by clicking on my name. When I click on yours it says your email address is hidden.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/04/2021 03:41PM by Kent Griffith.

Sent an email and made mine viewable

Aaron,
First of all, I apologize for stepping on your post.
Kent,
Thank you for taking the time to supply me with the photo of the first rod in its relaxed state. As with my spirals, your line path is not as straight while in the relaxed state as when a 90* load is applied, hence the request for the photo. I have found that it is often easier to get a straight line path under load with a spiral than if all the guides were on top! I am confident you and I are on the same page in concern with keeping the line as straight as possible, most importantly when the rod is flexed and still, yet to a lesser degree, when relaxed. As stated before, I still like to get the line to the bottom as soon as possible but certainly not at the risk of inferring with a straight line path, and certainly not within 2ft; closer to 3ft or possibly more. My only exception is when employing All American Roller Guides in a spiral wrapped offshore rod. Due to their nature, it is impossible to achieve a straight line path while unloaded, but at least it improves immensely under load.
You made a very valid point in that the blank is larger in diameter closer to the reel than further out toward the tip, making it more difficult to retain a straight line path due to the distance from the centerline of the blank to its OD. It is a point well-taken and experienced.
With all due respect, consider reevaluating your statement, “I am holding on to the line by hand to load it to an approximate 90 degree vertical load situation. And in my opinion the line flow through the guides would be the same if I loaded it with a vertical weight straight up and down”. I disagree. With a rod held in the horizontal (90*) position, no matter how much weight is added to the tip, the tip will NEVER go past 0* but simply shift the bend / load further back toward the butt. However, when pulling the line back toward the reel (exaggerated “high-sticking”), the tip could be bent 180*( if it didn’t break first). Pulling on the line in such a fashion induces an unnatural flexing of the blank, even if stopped at 90*.
So as not to end on a sour note, yours are a perfect example of how a spiral guide wrap should look and perform; in my opinion, mine too. The funny thing is that it is not difficult to accomplish.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Unbelievable how many posts on same subject. Kent is a friend of mine. We fish, eat, and share ideas together. He doesn't pay me, and he receives no compensation from this wrap. I'm saying it's the best version, period. For those whom haven't tried it, please keep an open mind and give it a go. The proof is in fighting the fish and until one experiences this there is little to talk about. I'm a satisfied user. Hope this is helpful.

I do the same thing Kent does but came about it on my own from a slightly different perspective. The way Kent describes the line path is similar, but the way I came up with it was by looking at the choke point to where the line from the reel will meet the top of the blank and flow straight to the underside continuing its path to the tip. This is how I decide the guide placement. The guides are simply put in the line path based on the height of the guide. Keep the line as straight as possible.

I like the Fuji RV 6 because of the height, in the path as the first guide closest to the reel, it keeps the line straight to the next 3 guides. Once I figure out the first 4 guides placement, I then start the running guides to the tip. I wrap all guides then put the rod under load and make final adjustments for the line path under load and centering the running guides, so they are straight. I also am looking for where the line may be contacting the blank in the transaction and adjust the position on the radius if needed. I try to get the line under the blank before the main bend of the rod. Sometimes you must move them all to get it right. I usually use CP before I apply the epoxy to keep this "tuned in" position in case I accidently bump one.

A spiral wrap is truly a custom rod in every aspect. A person that wants one is going to have a very specific need and usually already know what reel he will use on it. The direction of the spiral, for me is determined by what side the operator is casting from. A right hand caster will have the spiral go to the left and a left hand caster to the right. It does not have anything to do with the way it is laid down on the deck other than the guides will be touching the deck if not laid on the handle, it just works out like that, and that is how I put my reels down over years living on the gulf coast with fine sand and mud on deck. The reason for the direction of the spiral is based off the strongest casting side or most used by the caster to keep the line direction of the cast away from the blank. The line touching the blank during the cast takes the distance away. The line has the most potential to be in a slack state, contacting the blank during the cast. Imagine you are throwing a spear and you are right handed; the left side of your body faces the target forward and the right side holds the spear. When you throw the spear, you do it from right to left or back to front. Typically, you are going to cast in this position when given a choice. It is the dominate position. This is just a very minute detail and may not matter. The line under load is not slack and if the main fighting position is with transition guides up or down, if the line is not touching the blank, it shouldn’t matter.

There are many production, conventional casting rods that were made in the past and are still made that when under load, the guides are spaced too far apart and the line either touches the blank or actually goes under the blank between guides. These rods do not do this and can not if built correctly.

Looks like Ralph O'Quinn method to me but I haven't seen one of his spirals for some time now, it's been around 40 - 50 years at least since he came up with it just fooling around. Spirals have been around a lot longer, double that. Since we are all casting further than we can effectively fish in most situations, how you do it is kind of a mute point to me, started with something similar to a Revolver Wrap and went to the Simple most often now, it gets the job done with no fuss. Don't know how much force you think your guides are being subjected to while fishing, but I bet it's less than you imagine.

Ralph's method is a favorite of surf anglers. Rich Forhan, arguably the most influential custom rod builder of all time, based his Revolver spiral on what many still refer to as the "Roberts Wrap" and proclaimed it more than good enough. I came up with the Simple Spiral as a means of having something I could explain over the phone in less than 2 minutes.

They all work. Find the one that you prefer and go with that.

...............

All,

I was planning on starting a spiral last weekend but should have known better. Family came first. I have decided to try a Cagey Hook first.

Kent G,

Thank you so much for all the info and guidance. I look forward to working with you through the process.

Looking forward to it Aaron!

i agree with Spencer on the simple spiral..i like the way it gets to the bottom with no fuss and still get excellent performance..i don't fret about how straight the line looks..i use braid and it doesn,t care either..lol..it works especially well wih flipping because i do not use any bumper guide..i go straght from the reel to the first 180 guide..it doesn,t get any simpler...

copy and pasted from a custom rod building book:

1. The line should run as straight as possible from the reel to the tip of the rod.
2. The line should form as small of an angle as possible with each guide.
3. The line should touch only the top or bottom of the guides in any fishing position.
4. The line should pass through the guides with no line chatter or vibration.
5. The line should not touch or pass the rod in any fishing position, casting or retrieving.
6. The rod should be balanced.
7. The rod should be stable in all fishing positions.
8. The rod should track in all fishing positions without experiencing torque or twisting.

Kent, i only follow one book and that,s the one writen by Tom Kirkman which basicly says to write your own book on rod building..lol. it,s a lot more fun..

After fiddling with the Cagey Hook method I've noticed something.

Isn't the line flow only straight during a slight bend in the rod? Because once the rod get flexed down into the backbone then surely the line flow can no longer become a straight path or else the butt guide would have to be much closer to the reel I figure.

This also makes me wonder, how would this method work on a slow action rod. Seems like the X spot for transitioning under the blank would be very close to the reel which would result in a wonky looking guide train.

All spiral wraps are a compromise. A balancing act. There is no perfect way to get line from o degrees up top to 180 degrees on the bottom side without going around the rod to one side or the other. You have to go around the rod. And this alone tells us the line cannot possibly always be straight.

Next, take your pick of compromise or balancing act.

Do you want the line to flow straight when the rod is unloaded and straight? Well good luck with that one! How do you go around a blank and stay straight? Can't happen. This is why it is called a spiral wrap. Line spirals around the blank as in not straight.

For me and the Cagey Hook Wrap method I chose to straighten the line under load conditions when I need to reduce line flow friction. So the line flow is straightened up as the rod loads up the guides move into alignment to accommodate straightening of the line.

And guides on a Cagey Hook Wrap look about the same as any other spiral wrapped rod. Side by side they look pretty much the same.

And yes, for lighter rods with bends deeper into the blank does change the crossover spot.

In fact, you can choose the location you want by choosing the degree of bend you want to build for. For my bass rods I go with a 90 degree bend and align the guides for straightest line flow under this degree of load.

And I suppose "wonky" is in the eye of the beholder. As stated my method of guide placement does not look all that different from any other spiral wrapped except for maybe the wonkiest of them all the simple spiral also mentioned above.

I know at least one other member on here who tried it like that and quickly stripped the rods down to change to a more advanced method of getting the line around the rod blank. To me what might look wonky to one is a thing of beauty to another.

And I don't give a hoot how it looks when rod is unloaded and straight. All I care about is how well the rod performs as it loads up. Spiral wraps are built for one reason and one reason only = improving load dynamics. Spiral wraps are built for the load. Not for the straight unloaded rod condition. That is darn near irrelevant. I aim for and care for and work towards improving the performance of the rod and line flow under load only when it matters. All else is insignificant really.

When done right this is how a loaded Cagey Hook Wrapped rod should look...



And unloaded, it is what it is, the nature of the beast and accepting that line cannot possibly flow around blank and still be perfectly straight while doing it. I will say however, the way I do it as compared to many other methods is that I choose to go around the blank as far from the reel as is possible where blank is thinner so less spiraling, while many other methods get around the blank as fast is possible closer to the reel where the blank is thickest and you see far more line flow redirecting away from straight as they spiral around the blank back there. Again, a balancing act. All doing the same thing in different ways for different reasons.





Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2021 07:37PM by Kent Griffith.

Kent, If you're willing to talk more about it, send me an email. Thanks

I have emailed you, but as yet no response. I was wondering if you have received the email?