Most published suggestions for spin rod guide diameters and guide spacing apparently refer to rods casting monofilament nylon or fluorocarbon lines. For those brave enough to spin-cast lightweight gel-spun braided lines is there a different recommended spacing, or does one size fit all?

Phil,
Guide spacing is easy.
Just place a guide where the rod bends so that it follows the contour of the loaded blank.

Guide diameters are also easy. Simply use the guide size and height that is necessary to accommodate the line movement at that point on the rod.

Small diameter limp line - smaller guide sizes.
Stiff and or large diameter line larger guide sizes.

Also, don't make the mistake of too many novice builders which I know that you aren't.

Only put enough guides on the rod to control the line and to insure that the rod blank is uniformly loaded under use.

i.e. nothing is gained by adding even a single guide more than is absolutely necessary. Any extra guide give rise to the possibility of extra friction on the line and and it may cause a reduction in overall prop efficiency and enjoyment.

Best wishes

Surf rods where historically they ran much longer guide spacing than others found an advantage to putting their guides closer together when gel lines came out, decreased the amount of lassoed guides while casting. Snapped off plugs, etc. can get your attention from a fiscal standpoint if for no other reason. I didn't have the same problems with my salmon/steelhead rods that had at least 30% more guides for the same rod length.

Fuji says; "More guides are better, you spend more money."

It is my opinion that spacing of the reduction train on spin is a geometry exercise and the spacing of the running guides is a rod stress exercise, and the type of line does not directly enter. Mono = braid = flourocarbon.

However, for casting characteristics, especially distance, guide diameter plays a big role with the braided lines allowing smaller (lighter) ring sizes than mono and FC. Similarly, lower pound tests of all lines allow smaller ring sizes. Guide heights can be important too, but similar influence for all lines-what is right for braid is also right for FC and mono.

No, I don't have objective data.

The use of "lightweight gel-spun braided lines" is very wide-spread. Many, like I do, don't use mono or FC except for leaders on the ends of the braided lines. Both spin and baitcast.

I get the "smaller" suggestions for ideal braid line size, but how much smaller than what? Why be so coy about specific (AKA useful) information?

Phil why don’t you give us some useful information on how you build your spinning rods.
Norm

Phil, it's not absolute. I'm hesitant to offer much specific because you will accuse me of being a wine label writer. But, at the risk of that, here is my spin formula which I use for "lightweight gel-spun braided lines", Fuji KLH 20-KLH10, KL5.5M, KB4, KB4, and 4 KT4's for a 7 t0 7 6 spin rod. With a Fuji LG tiptop that fits the blank. It always gives me a rod that pleases me for weight, line control, casting distance, accuracy, pushing on the line, all of the above.

MIchael, I've never experimented with spinning rod guide trains. For me it has either been factory rods with COF guide trains, or supposed NGC guide trains. I say supposed because as I am learning about spinning rod guide trains, Those rods may have used NGC guides, but I would bet a fishing rod or two that they were COF guide trains. Anyhow, be that as it may, I have been using KR concept guide trains on all of the spinning rods I have built. I've used fluorocarbon line as the main line on my spinning gear for gosh ......... 15 years? 20 years?

Every single factory spinning rod I have ever owned, had line slap. Some worse than others. I am on my 7th spinning rod build right now, and I have experience zero line slap on any of those rods. I don't know if it's the smaller ring size, or the taller guide frame. Or it could be the actual line I use, Seaguar Tatsu. It's a supple for a fluorocarbon line. I'm sure it's a combination of ring size and guide height, but personally. I'm thinking it's the height of the guide more than the size of the ring.

Michael Danek Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Phil, it's not absolute. I'm hesitant to offer
> much specific because you will accuse me of being
> a wine label writer. But, at the risk of that,
> here is my spin formula which I use for
> "lightweight gel-spun braided lines", Fuji KLH
> 20-KLH10, KL5.5M, KB4, KB4, and 4 KT4's for a 7 t0
> 7 6 spin rod. With a Fuji LG tiptop that fits the
> blank. It always gives me a rod that pleases me
> for weight, line control, casting distance,
> accuracy, pushing on the line, all of the above.

That is exactly my formula but I have found it works for just about any line. I also do not like fluorocarbon lines especially on spinning rods because it is too stiff. It will not cast as far as mono or braid (my prefered line on spinning) and it has memory, way more than is advertised. You bend it and it stays there. To me, it just comes down to keeping the line straight and stopping the wave, that is what that guide train does on a medium light or light rod. If you go up in size of line / larger spool and it is stiffer, then use a 25h, 12h, 6h and 5s or 4.5s. This gives you the correct concentric spacing to keep the line straight and stop the wave. I always use high frames like on Fuji K series (KLH) for the strippers or 3 closest to the reel. What does Billy Vivona use for a guide train and line, he has made a ton of spinning rods.

I should think there'd been enough discourse on this topic for anyone to have read it by now. Especially those who are around here a lot.

Are we to believe the flexibility/diameter/heat sensitivity of fishing lines have no appreciable impact upon the preferred size, spacing, or number of guides? The devil is in the details, which are widely shunned. A couple hours fishing with the wrong guides for the wrong line on a steelhead river in January might alter your roadbuilding focus.

Sounds like yet another business opportunity. So many unknowns that could be figured out and sold.

I disagree with the statement, relative to this forum and other rodbuilding forums, that the details are widely shunned. We can agonize forever on details.

Knowledgeable winter steelhead fishermen don't use tiny guides because they tend to ice up more than larger ones. Has to do with surface tension of the water.

Thank you for the useful information, Michael.

Michael,
The one exception that I make to your guide setup for a spinning rod is a spinning rod that is used in freezing temperatures.

Then, I go with the following: 30 h - 10 sv to the tip with a 10 tip top.

Simple and works very well when one is fighting icing conditions. The larger guides shed ice and even if you have ice on the line, the line will still flow through the guides.

Also, for these type rods, I prefer the use of composite blanks. That is so, that when all of the guides get loaded up with ice, you can just take the rod and beat it against the side of the boat, or the ground or ice - depending on location to knock the ice free of the rod guides and the line without breaking the rod, as would be the case if using a thin walled high graphite content rod blank.

Best wishes.

Knowledgeable steelhead anglers have used the small guides for close to 50 years, depends on where you fish, the Pacific Northwest where many of these rods were developed doesn't have the freezing weather on enough days to warrant building a rod differently for those conditions, when I lived in SE Alaska the same thing. If it really gets cold here hardware becomes very effective at moving fish that would literally need to be hit in the face with a bait offering to bite. You wouldn't use those rods for hardware anyway. Location, location, location.