So I'm building a heavy 11ft surf rod for a friend of mine using Fuji KW guides. The set I have is 30-25-20-12-8s to the tip.

The problem I'm having is where to put the first guide and so forth. The reel will be a size 6500 Daiwa with 65lb braid so in the GPS I clicked on the Saltist 6500H with KW guide system and it says a size 30 KW should go 18.5 inches from the front of the reel seat. Surely this can't be correct and based off the size of the 30 guide and how big a 6500 reel is I figured it would need to be closer to 30 inches away and perhaps even bump it up to a size 40 butt guide! Would really appreciate some input on this as I'm really kind of stuck and don't know where to go from here.

Thanks, Denham

Denham,
I can appreciate your consternation = a size 30 only 18.5in from the spool does not seem correct to me either. But, admittedly, I am not well-versed in surf spinning rods either = sorry, I am not qualified to offer assistance. Although I am not sure how many surf rods he builds, hopefully Norman Miller can offer some help or possibly Mr. Fuji himself, Jim Ising, will offer his insight. I am very interested in your topic and will follow it to learn.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Wow , that reel is a beast weighing close to 30 ounces and holding 440 yards of 65 pound test .

DO NOT go up to a 40 KW it's totally unnecessary , even the 30 is large but it looks to me that it's one of the very few that fits well for the Saltist spec's and line choice. First thing to do is get the reel seat position located based on your friends preferences that's # 1 . After that's done only then can you proceed .

#2 ) Decide where you plan on putting the choker using the 27 X method first and attach it temporarily at that location .



THEN FOLLOW THE BELOW :

[www.rodbuilding.org]

I did the 27x method and the choker guide spaced out at 80 inches from the reel seat which was much further than expected and was only about 2ft from the tip section. Then on that line I ran down the size 30 KW and it was spaced about 40 inches from the reel seat. That also had me scratching my head.... GPS had the butt guide too close and the 27x had it too far. Unless one of those sounds right to somebody...?

The literature doesn't exactly make it clear that, given a big enough reel on a short enough rod, your rod tip will end up being your choke point. In other words, don't fret if you need a lot more reduction guides than the literature would suggest.

What is the spool diameter on that reel? Is a 30 ring large enough? I haven't used the KW's but in the MN frame I could see needing a 40.

FWIW I have never found a guide "set" to have the correct guides

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Bruce,

18" will not work.
30* is probably too close
Inasmuch the blank itself plays a roll (how deeply into the butt it bends is important) you would do well to push out further
I cannot imagine that the rod being set up with a 6500 spooled with 65lb braid it is limp wristed though....

A 6500 daiwa has a big spool (3" dia roughly) that is "tall" off the blank.
I would start at around 33" maybe 33.5" and work outwards.
65lb braid, esp when wet billows out and slaps the blank, so keep reduction guides tightly spaced and place the KW12 choke at around 69" from the spool
You could try 13.8", 11.8", 9.8" and from the stripper to the 25 to the 20 to the 12 choke (I am am a metreic thinker so have quickly converted what I calcuklated; you could round up to say 14" 12" and 10".


You can start with a KW30J not the L version or a KW40L as a stripper and place as per above ( You can straight swap a KW30J for a KW40L in a layout)

Tape up and test



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2021 06:22AM by Brandon McQueen.

If the 27 X method showed an 80 inch choker position then that reel spool lip diameter is as large as the one I use for surf fishing which is a little over 75 mm . As far as moving in the choke from 80" to 70 inches , I have done that numerous times in the past BUT not with heavier braid it just doesn't work well at all , with lighter braid it works incredibly well but not with 50-65 pound braid it doesn't .

One of the biggest things that kills the efficiency of rod/reel setups in particularly with spinners and using braid is having too much room inside the ring . People have a real hard time figuring this out because in the overwhelming majority of cases they go too big with the reduction guide train especially the stripper . It takes a long long time and extensive first hand experience to get to the point of knowing the characteristics of all the various types of braid and how they will perform when paired with popular guide types and sizes.

For example I just built two CTS 10'6" surf rods, one is setup with a RV25 , RV16, KW10M to a KB 5 and KT 5's on out and that's my heavy surf setup. It casts amazing an absolute rocket launcher . The other is my lighter duty surf rod and it's rated up to 3 ounces , I use a KL25H , KL10H - 5.5M to a KB 5 and KT 5 runners and it's also an 'Out of this world' performer .The thing to avoid at all costs is a gradual reduction in guide sizes.

Gradual reduction guide trains are purposely meant and work best with mono not braid , with braid you want each succeeding guide to have a major impact on line angles and gradual reduction trains don't allow that . The problem with gradual reduction guide trains like 30-25-20-12-8s is each guide has so little of an impact on line angle . With braid that's a huge no no . You need each guide to drastically change line angle for top notch performance with braid and guide trains along the lines of say 30 , 20 ,10 etc... or 20,10,5 are ideal, stay far away from 30,25.20,16,12,10 etc.. or any other similar layouts , those are poor layouts if you choose to use braided line .

A 25 high framed ring set in the vicinity of 40 inches from the spool face would be ideal and handle 65 pound braid beautifully and it won't kill the rods efficiency. A high framed 30 size ring is too large but it is one of the very few choices you have that will work well enough with the reel and line you plan to use . A 30 isn't as ideal as a 25 size ring but it works for your particular situation . A 40 is just ridiculous and shouldn't even be considered . You can place a high framed 30 in the 35 inch range to start doing some test casting .

All I build is surf rods and I have 5 subject notebooks packed with nothing but the results of casting different braids, diameters , guide types and guide positioning's . I'm extremely particular and critical of surf rod performance and will not settle for anything other than the very best performance and efficiency .

Having said all that , all I can do is tell you what I would do and that's what I have provided to you it's just my personal opinion from my personal experiences . Hope it turns out well for you and your friend.

On another note, what in God's name is your friend fishing for that he needs 65 pound braid , that will winch a Volkswagen off the ocean floor .

65lb wont winch a VW off the ocaen floor., it will however pull the plug out of the bottom
You think 65lb is daft? Pfft try GT chasers who want to use 120lb braid with 300lb mono leaders. For goodness sakes.

RV25 is lovely, but expensive.
6500 spool dia is 74mm and being a Daiwa, throws larger coils than a similar Shimano with their AR-C spool lip

I disagree that 30 High is too large for 65lb
Pity I cant figure out how to attach a screen grab as a photo. I'd show the layout I knocked up.

Braid being soft is all fine and good, but 30" is too close for a braid that typcially has a dia of around 0.45mm

"You think 65lb is daft? Pfft try GT chasers who want to use 120lb braid with 300lb mono leaders. For goodness sakes"


Did Denham say this setup was specifically for fishing GT's because I can't find where he mentioned that . If it's not then 'Yes' , without question 65 pound braid is ridiculous in the overwhelming majority of surfcasting scenarios for anything other than large sharks .


"I disagree that 30 High is too large for 65lb"

In my opinion and from my testing I think it's too large but not out of the question because there is no other ideal guide that's affordable so that's probably what he should go with.


"6500 spool dia is 74mm and being a Daiwa, throws larger coils than a similar Shimano with their AR-C spool lip"

You fail to realize that the coils from braid and the coils from mono act very differently in guide trains and thinking they react and perform identical is a big mistake .


"Braid being soft is all fine and good, but 30" is too close for a braid that typcially has a dia of around 0.45mm"


It all depends on the braid brand because different brands react very differently once spooled up and the test casting starts , some are much stiffer and more wiry and some are very soft and supple even in the heavier test strengths . I said start testing at 30 to 35 inches and adjust accordingly .

1. I was having a little fun with the 120lb braid comment. I thought the "plug at the bottom of the ocean" comment was a give-away that I actually agreed with you.
2. I do not fail to realise the difference in mono vs braid and how they behave. I may not be an old member on this forum, but I have done this before too, dont assume I haven't
3. Of course different brands behave differently, at least initially the thickly coated ones are very stiff. Thick wet braid is a pig and can ruin casting distance
4. You did say start at 30-35", I said 30" is too close for 0.45mm (we'll call it PE8) braid, especially on a 11' rod, that considering the reel being used, is likely quite powerful and will generate high line speed


Your comment: "The problem with gradual reduction guide trains like 30-25-20-12-8s is each guide has so little of an impact on line angle"
Do you mean the cone angle from guide to guide or do you mean that the imaginary line that runs from guide centre to guide centre should get steeper as the guides get smaller?

I guess I'm a dinosaur. Wasn't that long ago that a 6500 reel was a medium size saltwater spinning reel. Of course some 6500's are bigger than others.

I used to charter some boats out of Key West with a group of guys. Loved to get up before dawn, catch goggle eyes, and free line them for big king mackerel. After get spooled a few too many times I returned next year with my new shimano 6500 bait runner. Wouldn't you know it. Very first fish ran off with close to 300 yards of 20# mono.

Must be a market for 20,000 size reels or they wouldn't be making them.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

"Do you mean the cone angle from guide to guide or do you mean that the imaginary line that runs from guide centre to guide centre should get steeper as the guides get smaller"



I mean the guide ring sizes are way too close in diameter and when guide ring sizes are way too close in diameter to each other you aren't getting nearly the benefit from them you're just adding a lot of unnecessary weight . Think about how little line angle changes take place on a guide train like for example a 30,25,20,16,12,8 makes . The sizes of the rings are much too close in size to make any significant line angle changes even if they're spaced correctly . That's an exceedingly long reduction guide train which is not what you want when using braid. A guide train that forces the line down in a much quicker manner for example like a 30, 20, 10 or a 25,12 5 is not only going to be much lighter weight , each ring size has a much larger impact on line angle than say a 30,25,16,12,8 does which adds a lot to the efficiency of the end product .


For heavier braids a 30,20,12 to whatever size choker and runners you choose is going to be much much better than a 30,25,20,16,12 etc... for lighter braided lines a 25,12,10 or 20- 10- 5 are superb choices . With the lightest braids many love to go with a KL16H as the stripper which is an excellent choice.

Another big mistake that rod builders make is when using Fuji's double foot RV guides , many choose to use a KW12M and a KW10M together , that's a terrible choice and the reason is once again the ring sizes are much too close in size to each other , a 12 ring and 10 ring together doesn't help efficiency at all, choose one or the other.

That's the best I could explain it, I hope it helps.

Lets move on from this because it's not our thread we were both trying to help Denham and I think we may have . Denham may also be thoroughly disgusted and more confused than ever and may never pick up another fishing rod in his lifetime , you just never know.

Gentlemen thank you so much for your advice I'm starting to finally have an idea of how the layout for this rod should be.

One of my takeaways so far is to lose the size 25KW, I can do that no problem. And I will start with the 30 at about 33" out and space the other guide how Brandon recommended!

As for what this gentleman is fishing for... it's actually pretty comical. My friend lives in Montana and he asked me to make him a rod for snagging Paddlefish lol. He'll be chucking 5oz of lead as far as he can with a big treble and sweeping it back on the retrieve. It's the only way to target this fish as far as I'm away and it is legal. 100lb fish being dragged in by their tail in a heavy current. That's the reason for such a heavy duty outfit!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/27/2021 06:18PM by Denham Bruce.

Denham,

Try a layiout with and without the KW25. Will cost yo a couple of $ and some time.
I love a KW30 KL20 set up for more rapid choking, but the KW20 is much lower and does not do well, the spacing needs to be too far apart for my liking
Siomething I was advised to do many years ago, was to buy every size of KW, KL KL-H KT etc with a stash of the smaller sizes for running guides and then go experiment.
I did this and learned heaps

Good advice guys. You can always ballpark whacky suggestions along a table edge...just to make yourself feel better about following through on an "experiment". Welcome, Brandon!

Jim Ising Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Welcome, Brandon!


Thanks Jim.
I thought I would poke my nose in here too...

The KW 30 to a 20 is not that far apart Brandon , a 30 to a 16 very well be too far apart but not a KW 30 to a KW 20 . I also have bought the whole array of guides that's why I know a 30 to 20 is ideal in most circumstances especially on surf outfits . Jim Ising knows very well that a 30 to 20 on surf outfits are pretty common and a 25 is definitely not needed . You will find a 25 to 12 is ideal on many light surf outfits , it's Fuji's own recommended spacing .

On another note very happy you joined Brandon , we could use another hardcore surf fisherman on here.

For big surf, there are few guys as knowledgeable as Brandon. He and Mike Hickey pioneered KR for big rods when Fuji introduced it as a light braid concept. With Brandon and Norm on the same forum I can consider retirement. Or at least a vacation.

Fantastic , we could use more people that really understand the KR concept regarding surf rods because every other surf rod building forum I have looked at over the years seem to have people who always recommend layouts like 25,20,16,12,10, etc.. or 40,30,25,20,16,12,10 ,7 . One of the biggest reasons I decided to join this forum was viewing recommendations to common questions on KR concept builds on other forums recommending things like using the KW12M and KW10M together which is a terrible recommendation.