I was intrigued with Pete Holloway’s “Easy Spiral System” article in the last issue of RodMaker magazine. While I have developed my own method of producing spiral-wrapped rods which work extremely well, somewhere between the simple spiral and the 0-60-120-180 systems (but NEVER a 90* bumper), utilizing the actual blank under load to determine the rotational positions of the transition guides seems to possibly have merit, if only to help get closer to the final, optimum positions.
As Pete, I agree and basically do not concern myself with the line stacking to one side of the reel for two reasons;1.) If a level-wind reel is employed, 95% of the issue goes away, 2.) If a non-level-wind reel is employed, the angler would have to “thumb” the line onto the spool anyway, spiral OR conventional = a moot point! But I prefer to get the line to the bottom of the blank as soon as possible to reap as much benefit from the spiral-wrapped guides as possible, especially with shorter blanks . But I also insist on the straightest possible line path, while relaxed (casting), under partial load (typical fish-fighting), and under full load (fighting that trophy).
While I may have developed my own method to produce spiral-wrapped guides, I also recognize and acknowledge the possible benefits of Pete’s method as well. I am anxious to combine the two in hopes they compliment and coincide with each other. Afterall, we are here to learn!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Mark,

Did you explain your method previously? If so, where? If not, can you add it here?

Also, what are the differences you mention?

Thanks,
Ed

Mark Talmo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I prefer to get the line to the bottom of the
> blank as soon as possible to reap as much benefit
> from the spiral-wrapped guides as possible,

This idea is a misnomer. Getting to the bottom of the blank as soon as possible may actually be the worst thing to do, and may not give most benefit from the spiral wrapping idea.

I've been spiral wrapping bass fishing rods for more than 25 years and my experience shows me to use the natural taper of the rod blank itself to get the line around it further out away from the reel for best results. Here is an image of a finished spiral wrap.



Please notice the line flow through the transition guides is perfectly ruler straight right into 180's further out on the blank. NO bends in the line going through any transition guide. And the line rides in the top center or bottom center of the transition guides as it is supposed to do. Side loading of any guides should not be allowed, but that is what happens when one tries and force the line to flow where it does not want to as in trying to get it around the blank as soon as possible. So my point is, the idea of getting around a blank as soon as possible does not always deliver the greatest benefit or results. It is actually forcing the line the flow in or through places it does not naturally want to be because it is being forced there based on an imposed idea.

Let the materials be the guide to the ultimate performing spiral wrap!

Post some photos of how your spiral wraps turn out and let's see how well it works...



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/04/2021 08:55AM by Kent Griffith.

Holloway's looks just like yours pretty much. Just simpler to do because the blank does all the work for you. I have been doing them that way for many years based on an earlier article by the guy at Castaway Rods. Just set it up like a regular baitcaster and load the rod heavily. The guides will spin to their preferred locations on their own.

Mark,
You mention that you do not concern yourself with line stacking on one side of the reel or the other.

Fine, read and understood.

However, I have to ask - Why not?

Line stacking is so simple to correct that for myself it simply makes sense to implement the correction to avoid line stacking.

In your case - set up your guide set in your usual fashion.

But, then, check the guide setup for line stacking. With all of the guides taped to the rod in their "final configuration, pull out about a 100 feet of line through the guide setup and tip top and let it lay on the floor.

Then, by either running the line through your toes to supply a bit of tension on the line or some other method to supply a bit of resistance to the line and reel the line back on the reel - without touching the line in the guide train.

To remedy line stacking - all that you have to do is to rotate the first or stripper guide just enough to guide the line to avoid line stacking. Essentially, I will rotate the first guide about 3-6 degrees - either right or left to correct the line stacking on the reel - whether it is stacked to one side of the reel or the other. Retest and tweak the first guide a touch more if further correction is needed.

Finish the build and go enjoy the finished for with a nice line flow and no line stacking on the reel.

The net affect of the change that I mention is that for certain times during a cast - depending on the position of the reel line guide at the time of the cast - the line will NOT be passing through the center of the first guide. But, so what - the casting accuracy and distance is unaffected by this change.

But, now, you will be able to reel in the line with little worry about having the line stack to one side of the reel or the other - assuming that you continue to use a similar sized reel and reel action on this rod into the future.

Take care

Roger I can't speak for how Mark does his spiral but I can tell you based on how I do mine... there is no line stacking problem to deal with or worry about or correct. It does not happen.

In order for line stacking to be an issue, the line has to be pulled off to one side or the other in a most profound way. And if you see how my line flows straight out along the rod blank in my photo above, there is no side pulling of the line to even cause line stacking.

A well built spiral wrapped rod does not cause line stacking mainly because the line flow when it counts under load should be right along the blank anyway.

Guides are aligned for ideal perfectly straight line flow under load. Any form of not following the tight straight line creates line flow redirecting away from its natural flow path and should be avoided. When done correctly, line stacking does not exist.

Line stacking occurs because some level wind reels when used to crank back hard pulling plugs may experience a bit of lag or movement in the level wind mechanism as it reaches and reverses itself on one side of the spool. If the line is coming onto the spool from left or right of center, the level wind mechanism may wind heavy on the side. It is not something caused by the rod per se, but by some reels and some plugs in such a situation. It can be remedied by butt guide orientation if necessary.

..........

Kent,
Have not been doing spirals as long as you but have been doing the exact same thing since I started. I know the line needs to be as straight as possible coming from the reel and not touching the blank under load. You are 100% correct, the blank dictates the guide placement. My spiral wraps do not stack line on the reel because of this. Any sharp change of direction in the line will cause friction and friction will cost casting distance and more resistance to reeling in under load. It is more important to keep the line as straight as possible than it is to get the line under the blank as soon as it can be done.

First of all, my post was to commend Pete Holloway on his informative article in RodMaker magazine, which I intend to attempt to combine with mine for my next spiral wrap.
Ed, yes I have offered my method on this site a few times. Basically, I use tiny rubber bands to temporarily mount the guides in a progressive spacing, rotating the butt guide to ~ 30* and the next one ~120*, mount the reel, tape a highly visible length of thread to the top of the spool and run the other end through all the guides with a minimal amount of weight dangling past the tip top. Next, 2-line static load test at full load and adjust the guides as required, including rotating the butt and second guide so the line just misses the blank by 0.060in ALL WITH KEEPING THE LINE AS STRAIGHT AS POSSIBLE. Sometimes the third guide needs to be rotated slightly. Then repeat while under ½ load and again at no load, slightly adjusting the guides and finally back to full load to recheck.This why, as stated, I am intrigued with Pete’s method.
I did not mention any differences other than possibly stating my preference in getting the line to the bottom as soon as possible.
Kent, as with Pete’s photo in the magazine, your photo is an example of a properly built spiral wrap with a very straight line path = good job. I strive for the same with mine. While you may have been building spiral wraps 4X longer than me, discounting my desire to get the line to the bottom as soon as possible as a “misnomer” and “may be the worst thing to do” does not follow common sense; the more guides that are on the bottom feeding the line in its path of least resistance, will produce a more stable rod, better resisting rod twist compared to if the guides were conventionally on top. Think about it; if a spiral wrap had only the tip top at 180*, how stable would it be? You have your belief, I have mine. On the opposite side of that, I have read of builders “directing” the line to the bottom with 2-4 guides within only 12in which I feel is WAY off-base. The saltwater spirals I build are generally built on much more full-flexing blanks, well into the butt section, than the one in your photo. On my spirals, I concern myself with achieving the straightest line path (while avoiding touching the blank) FIRST and getting to the bottom as quickly as possible, SECOND.
Roger and Kent, Excuse me for not being more concise with my statement regarding “...do not concern myself with the line stacking to one side of the reel for two reasons;”. If you read and understand the remainder of the sentence, my point should be very clear. Restated, I do not concern myself with line stacking because it does not exist. A level-wind reel will eliminate 95% of line stacking. If a non-level-wind reel is used, the angler would have to thumb the line as it reeled back onto the spool anyway. Case-in-point; take a non-level-wind reel where the butt guide delivers the line dead-center to the spool. Let-out 100 yards of line and reel it back in without touching the line. What happens? = the line will stack in the center of the spool! If the butt guide delivers the line to the left side of the spool, the line will stack to the left side of the spool and the same for a right oriented scenario. In any case, right / left / centered, the bottom line is the angler is required to properly thumb the line back onto the spool to STACK IT ONTO THE SPOOL EVENLY!
To conclude and get back on-topic, allow me to, again, congratulate Pete on an informative spiral wrap article. I am anxious to explore the possibilities. I have found and benefitted from remaining open-minded to the way others accomplish similar tasks to be essential in improving; and I am always trying to improve. We are all here to learn.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Lance Schreckenbach Wrote:

> Any sharp change of direction in the line
> will cause friction and friction will cost casting
> distance and more resistance to reeling in under
> load.

Yep. And oddly enough, that type of spiral wrap is the one most commonly recommended too. One that has sharp line redirection changes and lower performance results.

> It is more important to keep the line as
> straight as possible than it is to get the line
> under the blank as soon as it can be done.

Right. I agree. Trying to force line flow around the thickest portion of the blank makes the least amount of physics sense. Rather, let the line flow out straight from the reel, and follow it to where 180's SHOULD begin on the bending blank further out where the blank is thinner and line can fly past the blank without even touching it or needing any redirecting imposed upon it. Going with the flow in spiral wrapping is most ideal rather than fighting it.

Tom Kirkman Wrote:

> It is not something caused by the rod per se, but
> by some reels and some plugs in such a situation.
> It can be remedied by butt guide orientation if
> necessary.

Tom I can not even think this way. Not possible for me. I can not consider "fixing" a line stacking problem by looking to the rod for the repair. My mind simply can not work that way. I construct rods for the most ultimate performance that I can squeeze out of them. So adjusting any guide on any rod to fix a reel problem is simply not within my realm at all. I would never consider doing it either. My comment above shows this:

"Guides are aligned for ideal perfectly straight line flow under load. Any form of not following the tight straight line creates line flow redirecting away from its natural flow path and should be avoided. When done correctly, line stacking does not exist."

Take a look at the photo of the rod I posted above. In my opinion, this is as close to perfect spiral wrapping as I can get. I followed every rule for guide alignment. I can not change away from this and readjust the butt guide away from the ideal spiral wrap to address some line stacking issue. I can not build rods like that! I won't do it.

To me this type of suggestion is a bandaid on a booboo. Solve the booboo problem and no bandaid needed is how I view it.

Mark Talmo Wrote:

> discounting my desire to get the line to the
> bottom as soon as possible as a “misnomer” and
> “may be the worst thing to do” does not follow
> common sense;

It follows physics sense. Follow what the materials tell you, not what you tell the materials you insist on them doing.

Once you begin to spiral wrap by letting the materials talk to you and tell you what they want to do, only then will you begin to see that getting line to the bottom of the blank as soon as possible DOES NOT equate to getting the most out of a spiral wrapped rod. Not even close. Common sense told me to let the materials teach me the best way to construct a spiral wrapped rod. Not me getting some ideas in my head and then forcing those ideas on the materials and then making it up in my head that this is the best way no matter what.

After more than 25 years of carefully learning the secrets of spiral wrapping, the materials told me that to get the most out of the spiral wrapped rod DO NOT force the line to the bottom as soon as possible. We are thinking opposite here.

This is another one of the problems I see in modern spiral wrapping... everyone wants to run the 180's on the underside much closer to the reel than they have to be. And, in doing so, invariably the rod builder is forcing the 180 degree spiral transition into too short of a rod blank space when common sense says to stretch it out and let it have more room so the line flow can straighten out rather than bunched up and forced to spiral around the blank where the blank is thickest makes the least sense in terms of physics.

Letting the line flow straight out of a reel and into the entry point of where the 180's should really begin further out on the rod blank is most ideal really. Let the natural taper of the rod blank get the blank out of the way of the line flow naturally by its shape. To me this makes more sense than hurry up and wrap that line around the thickest portion of the blank and run those 180's way back down the blank where they don't really have to be or even need to be.


> the more guides that are on the
> bottom feeding the line in its path of least
> resistance, will produce a more stable rod, better
> resisting rod twist compared to if the guides
> were conventionally on top. Think about it; if a
> spiral wrap had only the tip top at 180*, how
> stable would it be? You have your belief, I have
> mine.

Let's agree to disagree. More 180's does not mean more stability.

I only put 180's on a rod where they belong based on the unique bend of that rod. I will not put not one more 180 on the underside of a rod blank if it has NO NEED to even be there in the first place. The rod, line, and reel dictate this need based on straightest line flow under load. I do not want 180's running almost back to the reel. That is NOT how to build a spiral wrapped rod in my opinion. And it certainly does not make anything more stable at all.

And I don't get how you think a rod is unstable or going to twist? I'm not seeing it. If you look at the photo I posted above there is no side loading of any guides, and therefore NO TWISTING and NO TORQUING forces even present. So I am not following your logic or reasoning on this one at all. My rods are not unstable. In fact, they perform flawlessly and exceptionally well.

In order for their to be twisting, torquing, and unstable, there has to be forces applied to cause such. And if those forces are non-existent, then what are we debating here? What is the source of your twisting and instability that compels you to claim a rod needs lots of 180's on it to be more stable and less twisting? I'm just not seeing it Mark.

> It is not something caused by the rod per se, but
> by some reels and some plugs in such a situation.
> It can be remedied by butt guide orientation if
> necessary.

Tom I can not even think this way. Not possible for me. I can not consider "fixing" a line stacking problem by looking to the rod for the repair. My mind simply can not work that way. I construct rods for the most ultimate performance that I can squeeze out of them. So adjusting any guide on any rod to fix a reel problem is simply not within my realm at all. I would never consider doing it either. My comment above shows this:

...........

Kent,

I'm not taking a guess nor theorizing. It happens with certain set ups. Take it to the bank. You have to remember that the butt guide doesn't send the line to the reel on a perfect zero axis. To do that, if necessary to prevent line stacking, you have to offset the butt guide just far enough to one side so that when the line is against that side of the guide ring, it is then traveling on a true 0 degree orientation so that it is not creating additional pressure on the level wind mechanism to one side.

.........

Copy that Tom.
I agree 100%.

Remember, the guide only needs to be offset enough to even up the line on the reel.

It may be as little as 2 degrees, or as much as 15 degrees. But, the guide change to eliminate line stacking on the reel does 0 with respect to casting and or catching effectivity.

Best wishes

roger wilson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Copy that Tom.
> I agree 100%.
>
> Remember, the guide only needs to be offset enough
> to even up the line on the reel.
>
> It may be as little as 2 degrees, or as much as 15
> degrees. But, the guide change to eliminate line
> stacking on the reel does 0 with respect to
> casting and or catching effectivity.
>
> Best wishes

Don Morton authored these rules years ago...

1. The line should run as straight as possible from the reel to the tip of the rod.
2. The line should form as small of an angle as possible with each guide.
3. The line should touch only the top or bottom of the guides in any fishing position.

I don't see anything in the rules that says guides should be aligned based on how a reel's line stacks on the spool. It clearly says in 3 that line should touch only the top or the bottom of the guides in any fishing position. It does NOT say keep adjusting guides on a rod until you like how line lays on one particular reel. Never mind how line flows through that guide being adjusted away from ideal towards reel repair time by way of rod.

If some prefer to adjust rods to match one reel, that is fine, but I am not about to build spiral wrapped rods that way. My photo above shows strict adherence to the rules, not repairs to line flow onto reels by adjusting rods away from the rules. Not happening in my world! I'm sticking to the rule book on custom rod building, not flying by the seat of my pants based on one reel. What if I change reels out? Now I gotta redo the butt guide again? Or, just settle for less than the rules and less than the ultimate in performance and settle on well it works well enough... Not for me! I'm sticking to the rule book! Custom rod building to me is all about total performance, not breaking the rules to fix a reel issue. I'd rather replace the reel and keep the rods to by the book. But to each their own!

Those aren't ironclad rules - they're one builder's suggestions.

If you have a problem with line stacking, and some do, then solve it by offsetting the butt guide. If you aren't having a problem then don't offset the butt guide. It's as simple as that.

............

Thanks for the suggestion Tom, but I won't build a spiral wrapped rod like that. I do not build rods to repair line stacking issues by altering a correct guide alignment to something else less than ideal. To me guides are aligned by where straight line flow under load says they should be as my photo shows. The butt guide is precisely where the line flow under load says it should be. I won't compromise on this one.

Another issue with this idea of hey just readjust the butt guide for any old reel having line stacking issues... I have over 70 rods still, and if I did this sort of guide adjustment how would I keep track of it? I'd literally have to attach a note to a rod built the way you suggest to remind myself years down the road that this rod was specifically adjusted for some reel I may no longer even have. Now what? Cut off the erroneous butt guide and redo it for what? A newer reel? When someone has 50 plus custom rods how do you keep track of which rods are adjusted for specific reels? I don't want to go down this road. I build every rod to be the most ideal it can be performance-wise for use with a range of reels. I don't compromise on that and backtrack into offsetting butt guides to help one reel lay line better. I'd change out reels first.

But the nice thing about the way I build rods for me is that I never have to worry about remembering or keeping notes on rods. I can take any of my custom spiral wrapped rods and slap a curado on them without issues, or a chronarch, or an Alderbaran or a Calcutta, and keep right on going. I don't have to stop and think and wonder about 'now which reel did I modify this rod for?' Is it tagged for a specific reel?

I've got rods I have not used in a couple of years. There is no way I am going to remember which rod has an offset adjusted guide for a specific reel several years from now. Not going to happen. So the only thing, the only correct thing for me to do is to keep a one track mind. Build spiral wrapped rods by the book. End of story.

So if you came to my house to go fishing with me one day and grabbed a rod out of the rack to use, I would not have to pause and say hey that one was built for a specific reel so you might have issues using that rod with that other reel. This is not going to happen with me. I have fishing buddies in and out all the time and some bring rods and reels and some bring just a couple of reels and no rods on the plane. I know they can grab any rod they choose out of the rack and I don't have to take pause to say hey, um that rod might have issues with your reel. What does the note attached to the rod say?

Just me, but I will not ever build a rod that is constructed to compensate or fix a reel line lay issue or problem. Just please understand on this subject we will have to agree to disagree and let it be...


I would like to read the article this thread is about so I will be purchasing this issue shortly.

Kent,

If a customer is having issues with line stacking and you refuse to build a rod "like that" then you shouldn't take on the project. Offsetting the butt guide so that the line cannot leave the 0-axis on the stacking side on retrieve is the only way to cure the problem, unless the customer is willing to change to a different reel, lure, etc.

Custom rod builders need to be able to adapt and solve any issues the customer may have. And there is no "book" on spiral wrapped rods, just lots of methods that all have their place in one type of fishing or another.

......

Tom, I don't build for others any more. I'm retired! And loving it.

I'll send you an email about purchasing this issue...

Kent,
I appreciate your thoughts.

I completely understand your arguments and theory on the guide setups that you suggest.

Great.

However, understand - that there is more than one way to have the perfect guide setup.

i.e.
Different paths can still get one to perfection.

Best wishes.

Kent,

That's fine. I certainly understand not building for the public anymore, but let's not tell others they're building a spiral wrap incorrectly if they orient their butt guide off a few degrees in order to solve a line stacking issue, if a customer has such a problem. Keep in mind that the most influential freshwater custom rod builder of all time, Rich Forhan, recommends this very thing if such an issue does arise.

.........

Depends on the reel and lure being retrieved plus a couple other things.I can make any level wind reel stack line to one side. Not hard to do. Just push your thumb against the line and hold it to one side as the level wind moves back and forth. The reel will wind heavy to the side you are applying pressure to. This same thing happens on some reels when you have a hard pulling lure on the retrieve or if you have the bad habit of cranking in your fish using the reel as a winch. This is why most saltwater reels above a certain size do not have level winds. The mechanisms cannot overcome uneven line pressure to one side of the spool on these heavier outfits.

I build mainly saltwater rods with a few bass rods here and there. Modern baitcaster reels have gotten narrower which limits how far the line can travel to either side of the spool. I think this has reduced the problem a lot in recent years. Plus you can always use a smaller diameter butt guide which limits how far the line can travel to one side of the guide ring. Line stacking does happen and it can be solved by smart reel choice and butt guide sizing and the axis you locate it on.