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Pages: 12Next
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bad fly rod blank?
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---)
Date: May 28, 2021 12:27PM

I took a 9 weight fly rod and held it firmly in a vertical position and stripped off 20 feet of WF 10 fly line. Behind me my wife took the end of the line and pulled it back away from the rod until the rod was bent nearly 90 degrees - fully loaded with POWER. I kept the rod handle in a vertical position and she released the line. The power of the fully loaded rod did not cast the line beyond me or even up to me - the line only moved a measly few feet forward! Do you think Sage will refund my money? If not, why not? I bought a rod which is supposed (by some) to push a fly line a long way!

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Re: bad fly rod blank?
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: May 28, 2021 01:23PM

Next time try adding some properly timed power yourself. The rod needs you, Phil. Sage doesn't claim the rod can cast by itself.

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Re: bad fly rod blank?
Posted by: Spencer Phipps (---.hsd1.or.comcast.net)
Date: May 28, 2021 01:37PM

Get yourself an old 30 caliber line throwing gun, problem solved, you're going to need lots of backing.

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Re: bad fly rod blank?
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: May 28, 2021 02:44PM

Phil,
Without a doubt - the fly rod failed the line pusing contest.

However, I believe that the other 100% of all fishing lines will fail the same test.

If you want the rod to pass, you need to use line that once it comes off the reel gets stiff as a board - but only after coming off the reel and then you will have a contender.


If I recall, I believe that we covered this subject in Physics 101.

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Re: bad fly rod blank?
Posted by: chris c nash (70.40.87.---)
Date: May 28, 2021 02:54PM

The best thing to do is contact Sage and tell them the rod is clearly defective because it was only able to cast a few measly feet , don't forget to tell them the exact method you used to test it .



I wonder what kind of distance I could expect with attempting to cast a spinner or casting rod with nothing tied to the end of the line , my guess is a few feet tops .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/2021 03:00PM by chris c nash.

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Re: bad fly rod blank?
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---)
Date: May 28, 2021 03:00PM

How long during the cast do I have to wait for the line to start pushing the line in front of it, so I can stop swinging the rod? I feel a little sheepish blaming the rod for my short, lousy casts when it was my fault for not waiting for the line coming out of the tip-top to push the line ahead of it.

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Re: bad fly rod blank?
Posted by: Ron Weber (---)
Date: May 28, 2021 03:14PM

Put a 1/2oz weight on it and try it, and make sure to stand right in front of it

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Re: bad fly rod blank?
Posted by: chris c nash (70.40.87.---)
Date: May 28, 2021 03:29PM

I never thought line was pushed I always believed line was 'Pulled' . A bow does not propel an arrow unless the bow string is under a lot of tension from the bending and resistance of the limbs , nock an arrow on an unstrung bow and see if it goes anywhere . In bow fishing a line is attached to the end of the arrow and the weight of the arrow is propelled by the bow string which is under extreme tension by the bent limbs which pulls the line behind it . There is no 'Pushing' involved.

I'm having a hard time believing that this is a serious question . I can imagine someone clicking on this forum for the first time and reading the title of this thread and the first question and saying to oneself 'This can't be real' .

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Re: bad fly rod blank?
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: May 28, 2021 05:23PM

Chrs C. I think you're right. The line is pulled. This push/pull thing is getting confused. With a fly line, while the line is held firm and not moving, as the rod goes forward that part of the line in contact with the tiptop is being pushed forward, which pulls on all the line in the air. And with proper timing and release, the OTHER end of the line, with leader and fly attached, is propelled forward with the line in tension, not compression. Pushing is over.

I think Phil E probably casts pretty well when fishing, but it cannot be due to the rod storing and releasing any energy that he has provided. It has to be simply magic.

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Re: bad fly rod blank?
Posted by: chris c nash (70.40.87.---)
Date: May 28, 2021 05:56PM

I'm not a fly fisherman and know virtually nothing compared to most on here including yourself when it comes to fly fishing , line weights etc. The first time I heard the word 'Push' a fishing line it baffled me because it's impossible to push a fishing line , even God almighty himself would have to take a step back and contemplate how to pull that one off .

Line is pulled by what it's attached to and the rod is what propels the object that the line is attached to , this doesn't work well or at all if the line is not attached to what's being cast which is the object pulling the line.

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Re: bad fly rod blank?
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: May 28, 2021 06:09PM

Chris, keep in mind that with fly the line it is the weight of the line that is being cast and which is loading the rod. The weight of the fly is insignificant to the issue. The line, its weight, is being cast. My point in my last post was that the line, at its interface with the tiptop, and with it being stopped from moving, is being pushed forward. And by its being pushed forward, that part of the fly line is PULLING the rest of the line. Which is in the air and moving in response to previous power transfer. If the timing and transfer of power from the arm of the caster and from that stored in the rod are right, then the cast can be effective and efficient. And the essentially weightless fly can be propelled over 60 feet. Magic. Or physics if you don't believe in magic.

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Re: bad fly rod blank?
Posted by: chris c nash (70.40.87.---)
Date: May 28, 2021 06:35PM

Yes, that's why I said I'm not familiar with fly fishing stuff which meant all the fly line types and weights and how to find the best match to a particular fly rod . That's very different when compared to what I'm familiar with although line type and diameter has a huge impact on how well a spinning setup will perform it's still very different than how one goes about setting up and getting a fly rod to perform to it's peak potential .

When it comes to fly angling I think it's 'Basic common sense' that the more line you have out in front of you that you can pick up off the ground and control in the air is the key to the best possible performance and distance . I think the ability of the fly fisherman is even more critical to achieving the best performance from a particular fly rod than say other types of angling where one can simply rely on a weight attached to the end of the line to do the work for them .

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Re: bad fly rod blank?
Posted by: Phil Erickson (---.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net)
Date: May 28, 2021 07:53PM

At no point in a fly rod cast is the line pushed! In both the back cast and forward cast the tip top is pulling the line. A "haul" single or double, accelerates the velocity beyond what is created by the rod casting motion.

There is a loading and unloading effect on the line velocity as well. If you doubt this. try casting a fly line with a ridged stick and see the difference.

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Re: bad fly rod blank?
Posted by: Robert Flowers (---)
Date: May 29, 2021 12:37AM

When the tip of the fly rod is swung, on the back-cast, the rod is loaded by the weight of the fly line.. It has to transform potential energy into kinetic energy. If the line is lying straight out on the water, the friction of the water also comes into play. As the rod initially starts to move, it bends, like the limbs on a bow, storing energy. When the rod motion is stopped, the rod straightens out, releasing that stored energy to the fly line. until the fly line straitens out again. The weight of the line again loads the rod, only in the opposite direction. When the caster feels a tug on the rod handle when the line reaches the end of the back cast, the rod is swung so that the tip travels in the direction where the line is supposed to go. the weight of the line again loads the rod. Energy is store in the rod blank, as it is simultaneously transferred to the fly line. The line travels in the same direction as did the rod motion According to the laws of motion, an object in motion will remain in motion at a fixed velocity, and direction, unless acted upon by some other force. So the line moves forward from the rod tip, unrolling itself until it is again straightened out, and is stopped by the opposing force of the rod blank.

Of course there are other factors, such as air friction on the line and on the fly, as well as timing of the casting motion, and proper execution of the cast, so that the back cast doesn't put the line, or fly on the ground, and waitinf for the rod to load before starting the forward cast.

There are a host of casting tutorials on YouTube, with some very accomplished instructors. Do a quick YouTube search for fly casting. They can explain it better than me. Here's one such video with Joan Wolf, winner of multiple casting contests - [www.youtube.com] She has multiple videos showing basic, intermediate, and advanced casting technique's; and their are many others. hope this helps.

Toght lines and frisky fish.

RJF

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Re: bad fly rod blank?
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---)
Date: May 29, 2021 09:05AM

I believe there is a video of Lefty Kreh casting an entire ninety-foot fly line with just his arm - no rod at all, and another video of him casting a whole fly line with a broomstick. The stored energy from the springiness in his arm or the broomstick probably made these long casts possible?

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Re: bad fly rod blank?
Posted by: John DeMartini (---)
Date: May 29, 2021 10:59AM

I started to explain to my grand child (8 YRS) the first law of physics. This is what I said "Newton's first law of motion is often stated as An object at rest stays at rest and an object in motion stays in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force." My grand child looked at me shrugged and said "HUH".

I said lets look at it this way Dilbert is walking down the street and is balancing a ball on the palm of his open hand. Dilbert is walking at a steady pace, he was not paying attention and he walks into a pole. Dilbert stops instantly but the ball continues to move forward because there was nothing to stop the ball from going on. I illustrated this by placing a ball in my open hand, I swung my arm forward and stopped it instantly, low and behold the ball continued on. My grand child looked at me and smiled.

Now I take my rod with the lure dangling, I bring the rod tip back and I swing the rod forward, the rod is pulling the line and the lure they all are accelerating at the same rate, I stop the rod instantly (end of stroke) but nothing is there to stop the line and the lure so they continue on their merry way until friction and gravity or the target stops them.

The rod acts like a lever to amplify the action of the arm/wrist and gives more impetus to the line and lure. It doesn't matter if it is a broom handle or a high end graphite rod the principal is the same only the out come changes (distance).

For anyone out there named Dilbert no offense intended.

Hope this helps.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/29/2021 11:06AM by John DeMartini.

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Re: bad fly rod blank?
Posted by: chris c nash (70.40.87.---)
Date: May 29, 2021 03:15PM

Phil , call Sage and tell them that after thoroughly testing with the help of your wife the Sage was only able to cast ' A few measly feet ' as you put it and that you decided to just go with your 'Arm' which obtains superior distance and want a full refund on the Sage.

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Re: bad fly rod blank?
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: May 29, 2021 05:02PM

Broom handle won't store and release energy, at least not a significant amount.

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Re: bad fly rod blank?
Posted by: John DeMartini (---)
Date: May 29, 2021 05:42PM

The broom never stores energy, the tip of the broom moves from point "A" to point "B" the line and the lure move the same distance as the broom tip. When the broom abruptly stops the line and lure keep going. The distance the line and the lure travels depends on how far and fast the tip moved and how fast the line and the lure was accelerated from point "A" to point "B"

The energy required to move the broom comes from the arm/wrist of the caster.

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Re: bad fly rod blank?
Posted by: Russell Brunt (---.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net)
Date: May 29, 2021 06:47PM

Phil, I am truly sorry your Sage is misbehaving. Given that you are a fellow Floridian I am offering to obedience train he/she/it free of charge for you. Patience is required so this may take several years.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

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