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Re: ? For Those Selling Rods in Regards to Decorative Wraps
Posted by: Michael Sutheimer (---.wi.res.rr.com)
Date: May 22, 2021 02:30PM

A performance based rod is easy to build. That is the thought that too many people have and the reason I am questioning selling rods. Just because you put good parts together don't mean your building to the peak of performance for those parts nor are you building to peak performance for the intended use of the rod.

One could argue it is easier to do decorative wraps. There is no question about what your doing. Decide what you want lay it out and do it. No quesswork about how something is going to perform.

Rodbuilders being narrow minded. Well I am not one of them. I just want to offer something that I don 't see available. Why compete with what is already being offered.

Well I got an hour to kill so I am going to grab some random performance parts off the bench and slap a easy rod together.

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Re: ? For Those Selling Rods in Regards to Decorative Wraps
Posted by: chris c nash (70.40.87.---)
Date: May 22, 2021 02:57PM

If you're capable of building a 'CLEAN' rod and understand the basics you can be successful at selling rods . You don't need to be a true master in every aspect of rod building but it certainly helps, I have no doubt about that.

The only rods I have sold were rods I built for myself that I decided after fishing them for a while were too long and cumbersome for me . I sometimes forget I'm not a tremendous physical specimen anymore . Not a big fan of 'Aging' .

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Re: ? For Those Selling Rods in Regards to Decorative Wraps
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.44.66.72.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: May 22, 2021 07:29PM

Around here, thread art's just eyewash.

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Re: ? For Those Selling Rods in Regards to Decorative Wraps
Posted by: Billy Vivona (---.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
Date: May 22, 2021 09:56PM

Michael Sutheimer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> One could argue it is easier to do decorativ wraps.

You could, but you'd be wrong, that's why so few people doing it, and so many are building high performance rods

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Re: ? For Those Selling Rods in Regards to Decorative Wraps
Posted by: Billy Vivona (---.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
Date: May 22, 2021 09:59PM

L
Of course

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Re: ? For Those Selling Rods in Regards to Decorative Wraps
Posted by: chris c nash (70.40.87.---)
Date: May 22, 2021 11:39PM

I'm convinced very very few build for ultimate performance , I agree that the talk is often about performance but spending some time in the archives looking at photos is all it takes to be convinced that appearance is clearly a priority over the best possible performance . The overwhelming majority of the images show guide wraps that extend at least twice the length of the entire guide foot or more, than wraps that end discretely after the the guide foot . There is also a ton of long elaborate visually stunning varieties of butt wraps.

It's extremely difficult to find images of rods the show a real focus on performance.

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Re: ? For Those Selling Rods in Regards to Decorative Wraps
Posted by: Michael Sutheimer (---)
Date: May 23, 2021 12:59AM

Billy Vivona Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Michael Sutheimer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > One could argue it is easier to do decorativ
> wraps.
>
> You could, but you'd be wrong, that's why so few
> people doing it, and so many are building high
> performance rods

We will have to agree to disagree. But if so few people are doing decorative wraps there has to be a good reason. Don't think that reason is lack of ability. There is almost nothing in decorative wraps that has not been done already. Real easy to get a book or watch YouTube to learn techniques and some practice you can be very good at decorative wraps. Performance building is a very fluid thing not black and white which is much harder to learn.

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Re: ? For Those Selling Rods in Regards to Decorative Wraps
Posted by: chris c nash (70.40.87.---)
Date: May 23, 2021 04:38AM

I think you're downplaying the skill required to be able to succeed at creating beautiful decorative wraps . I think building a rod strictly for performance is 100% easier than what it takes to become very proficient at doing decorative wraps . What's difficult about building a rod with a focus on the best performance possible ? Granted, knowing specific reel & line characteristics and how they corelate with guide types and sizes based on the reels specs takes a little more thought than building a rod that's meant to be used with more than one specific reel but it's still much much easier than trying to learn decorative wraps at least in my opinion it is .

I truly believe not everybody can succeed at decorative wraps even if trying to follow along with a book or video I think it takes a lot of natural ability . An individual can buy books and watch video's on many different things but that definitely does not mean they will become good at it.


To each their own as they say

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Re: ? For Those Selling Rods in Regards to Decorative Wraps
Posted by: Michael Sutheimer (---.wi.res.rr.com)
Date: May 23, 2021 04:59AM

I am not downplaying the skill needed to do decorative wraps. Granted some people just can't do certain things. Just feel it is much more learnable skill. You do a b and c. I feel you have much fewer variables to deal with is all and you almost always have set guidelines. I have great respect for anyone that can do a complex wrap.

Perhaps we are not comparing things equally. A decorative wrap takes a lot of physical ability, a well executed rod for performance is a more mental game in my opinion.

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Re: ? For Those Selling Rods in Regards to Decorative Wraps
Posted by: Billy Vivona (---.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
Date: May 23, 2021 06:00AM

Michael Sutheimer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I feel you have much fewer variables to deal with

IT's not difficult to buy the right blank for you fishing application, choose the grip materials you like best, trim 3/8" off a reel seat, and use Titanium Torzite guides with minimal thread wraps and epoxy. You can do this on your first build and have a high performance rod. YOu don't even need to figure it out, you can buy a copy of Rodmaker magazine and follow RIch Forhan's articles & rod recipes and a first timer can be an instant pro.

The reason so few people can do Dec WRaps is because it takes a very long time, and they are difficult to do well. TO see proof of this, let's see some photos of the rods you've been building for 25 years. You have a lot of opinions, let's see if your work backs up your statements as far as how easy they are to learn. In this day and age there is no excuse to not have photos of your work, I'd love to see some of yours posted in the photo section.

We should run a test...I'll give you a pattern to wrap, and you can give me a fishing application to build a rod for - I'll get a builder who has been building less than 1 year to build it. YOu can show us how easy it is to learn Dec WRaps, and I'll show how easy it is to build a high performance rod.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/23/2021 09:15AM by Billy Vivona.

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Re: ? For Those Selling Rods in Regards to Decorative Wraps
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---)
Date: May 23, 2021 11:47AM

The WORST thing an ounce or two of decorative wraps and epoxy can do to a fly rod is to slow the rod down and shorten your casts a few yards. You could put a decorative wrap from butt-cap to tip-top on a trolling rod and not do a spec of harm to the rod's function or utility. And your trolling rod will get a lot more viewer attention than your fly rod - at least while you are fishing with it, if not while it hangs in display.

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Re: ? For Those Selling Rods in Regards to Decorative Wraps
Posted by: Grant Darby (172.92.68.---)
Date: May 23, 2021 12:48PM

Some of us have actually done a bit of "performance testing". 2 identical blanks, components and assembly. One with a tasty butt and guide wraps and one "minimal, performance" build. Go fish all day, make hundreds of casts, catch lots of fish. Could I tell the difference? Nope, but I sure like the look of my thread work so I'll keep on doing it. Folks I build for like it to.........I even put feathers and metallic trim on fly rods, no complaints about lack of "performance". Billy's right, some can do it well and most can't ......ergo...."I build for performance" not appearance. Long live thread art!

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Re: ? For Those Selling Rods in Regards to Decorative Wraps
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.44.66.72.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: May 23, 2021 03:26PM

Few appreciate the beauty of, or skill required to do decorative wraps and weaves more than I do, and I've spent a great deal of time admiring them. When I say I build for performance, it just a way of saying with little added embellishment. This doesn't mean I only wrap with black thread and no trim. I actually have 5 or 6 different colors of thread. Lol. I build very few rods compared to most of you, but the ones I do build always look very tasteful and distinctive, and not a cross-wrap among them. If this disqualifies me as a builder, then I guess, bite me. Lol

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Re: ? For Those Selling Rods in Regards to Decorative Wraps
Posted by: Bill Marchisella (---.nycmny.fios.verizon.net)
Date: May 23, 2021 03:26PM

I think you can have the best of both worlds. I'm for decorative wraps and bling. I did my first cross wrap maybe sixty years ago and never looked back. I feel a rod must perform correctly. I also believe a rod should have some bling to say I'm custom. There is no better way to say that than with cross wrap or weave or custom grips. There's nothing more rewarding to me than to hear a customer say WOW when I hand them their custom rod. That signals to me that I did my job. There are people that say decorative wraps are just eyewash; I like to call it eye candy. It doesn't do anything for the performance of the rod, but it will get you that WOW factor from the customer.





























i

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Re: ? For Those Selling Rods in Regards to Decorative Wraps
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.44.66.72.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: May 23, 2021 03:55PM

I fall into much the same building category as the original poster, and since his ? is directed to "those selling rods", I probably should have kept my nose out of this in the first place! Then again it happens a lot around here. Lol

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Re: ? For Those Selling Rods in Regards to Decorative Wraps
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: May 23, 2021 11:08PM

The custom builder who has become extremely proficient in a wide variety of tasks related to this craft and can deliver whatever a customer wants, be it a very intricate decorative wrap, feather inlay, woodwork, etc., and/or simply a highly functional rod has the best possibility of making a go of things. If you can fulfill any and all customer requests, you're ahead of the game. Some builders specialize in a certain type rod for a certain type clientele. I think Billy makes a good point in that we're going beyond simply what you can do and more into what are the best business practices that will allow you to become successful at what you choose to do. I've known a lot of very capable and talented custom rod builders who could never quite make a go of the business side of things.

..................

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Re: ? For Those Selling Rods in Regards to Decorative Wraps
Posted by: Phil Ewanicki (---)
Date: May 24, 2021 09:25AM

Same with hunting. The great majority of firearms and bows used for hunting or target shooting are unembellished tools, not objects d'art.

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Re: ? For Those Selling Rods in Regards to Decorative Wraps
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: May 24, 2021 12:22PM

Phil Ewanicki Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Same with hunting. The great majority of firearms
> and bows used for hunting or target shooting are
> unembellished tools, not objects d'art.

That's true, although most of those are commercially made. Custom guns often feature very intricate engraving or elegant wood stocks. The custom market for anything is small, but the desires of the customer are going to be different than those that buy items off the rack. Most of the time anyway.

..............

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Re: ? For Those Selling Rods in Regards to Decorative Wraps
Posted by: Michael Sutheimer (---)
Date: May 24, 2021 05:07PM

Interesting thing about custom guns. At one time it was all about decorative aspects. Still a small demand for that. However the vast majority of custom rifles today are performance based.

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Re: ? For Those Selling Rods in Regards to Decorative Wraps
Posted by: Russell Brunt (---.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net)
Date: May 24, 2021 06:31PM

Michael, I was about to post something along the same line.

I target shoot. If you want a competitive 1911 for 2700 matches it is a given that you have to ship your gun off to a pistol smith. The top guys can keep you waiting a year or two.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

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