All,

I've been using the nail knot method for making trim bands on the guide wraps. They're not too hard to do and pretty quick but I can't seem to get a nice clean look with them. I get little nibs near the knot because I'm having difficulty getting a clean cut with the metallic thread. My razor blade is new but I still have the same problem. What method do you guys use to get a nice clean cut near the knot on metallic thread? If you don't use the nail knot, what method do you use?

Thanks,

Lee

Why use a nail knot method, when doing a regular wrap is easier and looks better. I hand wrap with the thread coming towards me from the back and I’m turning the rod towards me. I start the trim wrap just like any other wrap, and count the number of turns I make. For example , If I want a four turn trim wrap I turn the blank 4 1/2 times. I then bringing the main wrap thread in between the trim wrap and the trim thread, make one turn to catch the trim thread and to start the main wrap. I put my thumb on the crossover point and cut the trim thread. I then continue the main wrap for a few more turns, I then unwind the second trim tag backs 1/2 turn to the first tag end, and trim all the tags. I now have an exact four turn trim band. I continue to wrap the rest of the guide. If you want a narrower or wider trim band just do less or more turns. You can also unwinded the trim tag end under the main wrap to get a trim wrap as narrow as a one thread trim band. If you want to do a trim inlay or olive branch a little further into the wrap, just cut the trim tag extra long, and wrap over it until you get to the point where you want the inlay. The take the trim tag and make the number of turns you want, and then tuck it under the main thread and cut the tag, and finish wrapping. If you want a trim band at the end of the wrap, you will need two tie off loops. One for the main wrap thread and the second for the trim tag. Tie off the main wrap, then wrap the trim tag around the blank for the number of turns desired and then use the second loop to tie it off. It takes a little practice, but once you get it down, it very easy to add threads any where in a wrap. If you wrap in the opposite direction then I do, I’m sure you can come up with a similar way to do it. Hope this makes sense. It not that hard to do and looks great.
Norm

A regular wrap is hard to do when you only want a 2 turn trim wrap.

For that, the nail-knot method is fine but you may want to CP the wrap prior to making your cuts. Once dried, the thread takes a nice, firm, even cut and won't fray or fuzz. Nor does it have a tendency to spring apart.

..............

Read the rest of my post, by unwinding the tag end under the main wrap you can do a single thread band. Not that hard to do.
Norm

I'll have to give that a try.

............

In years past, I used to do trim wrap by taking a length of trim thread and a tie off loop and tape to the blank with the loop and long end oh the trim thread pointing away from the direction you are wrapping. Now using your main wrap thread, wrap over the trim thread and tie off loop for a few turns. Then take the long end off the trim thread and make as many turns as you want abutting the main wrap, use the tie off loop to pull the trim thread under the trim and main wrap and cut the tag. Now finish the wrap. Easy, but takes a little more time then the method above. As in the above method you can leave one tag end long and bring it back into wrap wherever you want to do an inlay.
Norm

Lee,
To me, trim bands are just like inlays = it is all about simply adding and dropping threads. I think this is what Norman is suggesting. I do not see the point of making two separate wraps to achieve a trim band next to the main wrap. Simply start with your trim color, make as many turns as preferred, introduce your main color and wrap over that tag and the trim tag 3-6 rotations, snip off both tags, and continue with the main wrap (color) = done deal.
I will admit not liking metallic thread and hence rarely use it; it is “springy”, coils and kinks much more easily than regular thread, whether NCP or not. My typical wraps are labor-intensive enough without adding additional steps and time having to employ CP, something else I do not care for and hence rarely use.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Man , when people explain how to do things by writing it out I always get completely lost and that's just me I'm sure others have no trouble following along . I have also found that using CP helps a great deal as Tom mentioned when dealing with trim wraps.

I know that writing out directions is sometimes very hard to follow. Pictures or film would work better, but all I had were words to explain how I do it. Sorry if it was confusing. I’m sure there are others that do it the same way as I do, maybe they can explain it better, or say something that makes the mind click and clears up how it done.
Norm

Norman, utilizing your method, and wanting a two turn trim wrap, can I not make it a 4 turn trim wrap to get it secure, then after wrapping a few more turns of the regular wrap, back out a couple turns of the trim thread so I have only two left, then pack the regular wrap up against the trim then continue the regular wrap?

Micheal. yes that’s how I make make a two turn trim. If you can’t get the trim secure just do a few more turn, and just back out a few turns of the trim tread under the main wrap to get what i want. I pull the threads taut and pack up tight. You can do the packing with a finger nail. Most of my trim wraps are three to five turns, depending on the contrast between the thread colors being used, and trim thread thickness. I’ve been doing it this way for so long it’s just second nature, I don’t even think about it. Maybe that’s why my explanation was not so clear for some to follow.
Norm

I apologize if my description of the “adding and dropping threads” method for trim bands was unclear; I understood it perfectly! Lol. There is a lot of validity to the saying “a picture is worth a thousand words”! Unfortunately, I do not possess the video abilities of Doc Ski and such others. All I can suggest to those having difficulty understanding the procedure is to simply think of and treat the trim wrap as if it were an inlay; the only difference is the trim wrap is at the beginning of the main wrap rather than somewhere in the middle but the same mechanics apply. “Adding and dropping threads” is certainly not something I invented but rather a common practice which has been employed by rod builders for many years. Apparently it has been overlooked as a quick, easy and SECURE method to produce trim bands. Two-thread (or obviously more) trim bands are easily, quickly and SECURELY accomplished; single-thread trim bands require a different approach.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

I think my comments were taken as being targeted to what is being explained in this thread and that's not how I meant them to be taken , I should of made it clear that I was speaking in generalities, my comments had nothing to do with Norms way of explaining things although I can see how it could easily be taken as such . Sorry for any confusion.

Carry on as they say.

Chris, thanks! I certainly do understand how reading written directions can be distracting. I just spent some time looking at U tube videos on trim wraps and I didn’t find any that did the trim wraps the way I do it. So my method may not be as common as I thought. This surprised me because the way I do it is quite easy and very fast. If I did trim wraps the way done on most of those videos it would take forever to wrap a rod. I guess people solve problems in different ways.
Norm

Perhaps my method is a combination of the afore mentioned methods.

I plan ahead for a trim wrap Perhaps 10 or 20 wraps before the end of the main wraps, I lay in the metallic threads that I want to use for the end trims of the wrap at the same time I will lay in 2 pull loops. I will do a half dozen wraps to hold the trim thread tight. Then, I use my fly tying scissors to nip the metallic threads sticking out above the main wraps. Then, I give the trim thread a gentle pull to pull any tag ends under the main wrap.

Now, I have a main wrap going with the trim threads coming out the end of the mains -- if long wrap - I will just put a piece of tape on the trim threads to keep them from getting in the way. I also have two pull threads coming out from under the main wraps.
I continue the main wrap until it is time to do a trim wrap. I do the first trim wrap the number of turns that I have planned for it. If doing multiple colors with main thread in between, I continue with the main until I get to the next trim color and do that wrap and then continue with the main wrap.

I now have the main thread, two pull threads, and the trim thread all at the end of the wrap. When it is time to stop the trim wraps, I capture the ends of the trim thread and put through the pull thread and using that pull thread, pull the trim thread back under the main wrap. Pull the trim threads tight and nip off the tag ends with my scissor.

I generally like to have my main wrap extend past the end of the trim wraps, so I will do 2 or 3 main wrap turns, and then, pull the main wrapping thread back under the wraps with the remaining pull thread.

Pull the main tight, and snip it with my scissors.

The resulting wrap is perfect with each end of each trim wrap held secure by multiple wraps of the main thread with no protruding tag ends.

Once you have done a hundred of this style wraps and trims, it is second nature and it takes no more time than other types of trim wraps.

But, the key with this method is that each end of each trim thread is held secure with a minimum of 10 main wraps, and thus will never loosen under any conditions after thread finish has been applied.

Take care

Thank you all for replying! I will review and test each method.

If I am using color preserver - I leave the springy metallic tags long on nail knot trim bands, snug them up against the wrap and apply color preserver. Once it dries hard, I use a very sharp razor blade and trim the hardened tags close. The hardened color preserver keeps even the narrowest nail knot band from unravelling. This works for me and provides a clean look.

Even easier if under wraps and double foot guides are on the table.

These days I try to avoid that on most spinning rods less than 20# class. It doesn't need to be off the table on conventional rods as light as 12-15# class IMHO. But then I'm using 12-30# conventional offshore for kingfish/dolphin/sailfish. A whole different ball game than LMB.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Trim wraps and bling in general can still be utilized on even the most weight critical builds by just taking a little different approach to it . I'm an extreme minimalist when it comes to rod builds in particular surf rod builds , I don't even use winding checks and my wraps are as short as humanly possible but I don't like bland and ugly either . On my last two builds in particular I wanted more eye catching colors and slightly more bling to the wraps but I wasn't willing to extend the length of the wraps at all , it just wasn't an option . So all I did was add colorful trim bands without adding any additional length to the already extremely short wraps and surprisingly it turned the entire build into a real eye catcher instead of the no frills look I chose in the past .

If you spend time in the photos section in the guide wraps section the creativity and talent of many individuals is awe inspiring . You will also notice how incredibly long the overwhelming majority of the wraps are where weight savings was clearly not a priority but that's A OK, if I had those skills I might embellish a bit more myself.

Norman Miller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why use a nail knot method, when doing a regular
> wrap is easier and looks better. I hand wrap with
> the thread coming towards me from the back and
> I’m turning the rod towards me. I start the trim
> wrap just like any other wrap, and count the
> number of turns I make. For example , If I want a
> four turn trim wrap I turn the blank 4 1/2 times.
> I then bringing the main wrap thread in between
> the trim wrap and the trim thread, make one turn
> to catch the trim thread and to start the main
> wrap. I put my thumb on the crossover point and
> cut the trim thread. I then continue the main wrap
> for a few more turns, I then unwind the second
> trim tag backs 1/2 turn to the first tag end, and
> trim all the tags. I now have an exact four turn
> trim band. I continue to wrap the rest of the
> guide. If you want a narrower or wider trim band
> just do less or more turns. You can also unwinded
> the trim tag end under the main wrap to get a trim
> wrap as narrow as a one thread trim band. If you
> want to do a trim inlay or olive branch a little
> further into the wrap, just cut the trim tag extra
> long, and wrap over it until you get to the point
> where you want the inlay. The take the trim tag
> and make the number of turns you want, and then
> tuck it under the main thread and cut the tag, and
> finish wrapping. If you want a trim band at the
> end of the wrap, you will need two tie off loops.
> One for the main wrap thread and the second for
> the trim tag. Tie off the main wrap, then wrap the
> trim tag around the blank for the number of turns
> desired and then use the second loop to tie it
> off. It takes a little practice, but once you get
> it down, it very easy to add threads any where in
> a wrap. If you wrap in the opposite direction then
> I do, I’m sure you can come up with a similar
> way to do it. Hope this makes sense. It not that
> hard to do and looks great.
> Norm

I can’t believe how much better this works for me! Thanks Norm. !!!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/24/2021 08:10AM by David Luttig.