What line weight, what lure weight, what size reel, how far?

My opinion is that when a test or study like this is being done and the mechanics are performed by a human, we can only at best get an "educated guess" result. There is no way a human can throw a lure with the exact speed and strength repeatedly. Think of a MLB pitcher...they can throw as hard as they can each pitch and the MPH is not going to be exact on every throw. So, us not being big leaguers, will even be less accurate on results. When the results are as close as mentioned....who knows. My opinion only. And, perhaps there was something I missed on the thread.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/20/2021 08:47AM by Todd Andrizzi.

Try bow-and arrow casting a 1/4 ounce weight from one of your "high performance" blanks and measure the distance the rod cast the weight. Then do the same with any old blank of the same length. State each blank's ACTUAL performance in Feet and Inches. Claiming "much better performance" is proof of nothing; measuring feet and inches is.

Try hitting off the tee with your high end putters and compare it to a Kirkland Signature driver. Measure in yds ft and in.

I wont tell you how far of a backswing. We wont measure speed or force of the swing. Just measure the results regardless of the infinite variables of the human physiological mechanics.

Rod building is an enjoyable, creative, and satisfying activity. I built my first rod in 1958, learning how as I went. It worked just fine. No evidence supports claims that rods built by individuals have performance superior to factory-built rods. (They use the same components.) The casting distance/accuracy numbers prove this. If you made your own blanks, guides, or reel seats maybe you could improve beyond the performance of factory-assembled rods, document and advertise this superior performance with numbers - and make a ton of money marketing your invention!

I am just playing around.

Unfortunately Phil the data is meaningless without marketing and proven to be unnecessary with the presence of marketing. To make money with a product one only needs to convince the market of the value. This perceived value is all that is required for most consumers. A lot of us here will question marketing and just as many won't.

Phil makes a great point when he said " No evidence supports claims that rods built by individuals are superior to performance of factory built rods" which I agree with 100% . I can't tell you how many times I have heard individuals say a 'Custom' will be superior and I never bought into it . My argument was always that if a custom is built on the same blank as the factory rod with similar layouts how is it superior granted the factory rod fits the individuals preferred handle length etc...

Custom builders always bring up that the handle length is fitted to the individuals exact preferences which is great but when I used to fish factory rods I found the butt lengths ideal not too long nor too short , I really didn't find any aspect of a quality factory rod to be uncomfortable or limiting to me which proves manufacturers have done an excellent job in designing models to suit the widest variety of people possible .

These days and referring to surf rods , I find all factory built rods to have much much much larger running guides than necessary but I understand they're also trying to fit the most people possible and many of those types think giant runners are a good thing . I honestly feel most people who build rods do it more out of pride and wanting to fish with something they were a part of creating than people who do it to gain the very best in performance which is fine everybody has their own reasons. When fishing light braid in particular it's difficult to distinguish a good factory rod vs a custom build and that's because even with mediocre at best guide layouts light braid is so ridiculously forgiving it's not effected in a noticeably negative way compared to heavier types of line.

I test cast as I would when fishing for bass, trout, walleye etc. and want to make a long one hand cast. (sometimes 2 hand) I stand on the center line of the unused portion of the local boat launch trailer parking lot and cast down the line. Spaces are on 11ft. centers. I then walk down the line with the line from the reel trailing thru my hand until I locate the weight. Count the spaces on the way back to the truck and multiply. It's not baseball, I know what my rods do in feet and with what line and weight. I may not be able to top manufacturers high end rods that sell for $500 - 600, but I can get pretty close for way, way, less money.

I personally only questioned the performance of my gear months after I dropped fishing freshwater and took up surf fishing very seriously . I fished lower end off the shelf big department store surf rods for a while and was not thrilled with the performance I was getting but not thoroughly disgusted either but one day I found myself in a specialty shop with much higher end rods with much higher price tags.

I checked them out closely and wanted to see how comfortable I was when handling a few of them and ended up buying one of them . To say that moment changed everything for me was a huge understatement, I was the happiest guy on the planet after fishing it for the first time . Nothing I have purchased in all my years changed the entire game for me then that one purchase did . Not only was I able to cast considerably further but the responsiveness , weightlessness, sensitivity and ability to put what I was throwing anywhere I wanted time after time truly blew me away . It literally made me a more successful angler overnight .

What it told me was that my skills had developed to a point that the biggest limiting factor for me was that older surf rod I was using , it was great in the beginning but I became disenchanted with it . Back in those days I believe I would have loved to find out exact performance differences it would have helped a great deal instead of me having to take a huge chance and spend more money on a rod that I wasn't positive would satisfy me but I really lucked out because it was everything I was hoping for & then some .

That surf rod was sold long ago and to this day I am always looking for blanks that offer the most advanced performance possible but at the same time I'm also thrilled with the performance I currently get and that's a great feeling to have.


I'm saddened somewhat by long time anglers who don't feel this way and are not happy with the performance they get , it's a horrible feeling .

chris c nash Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I personally only questioned the performance of my
> gear months after I dropped fishing freshwater and
> took up surf fishing very seriously .

> Nothing I have purchased in all my years changed
> the entire game for me then that one purchase did
> . Not only was I able to cast considerably
> further but the responsiveness , weightlessness,
> sensitivity and ability to put what I was throwing
> anywhere I wanted time after time truly blew me
> away . It literally made me a more successful
> angler overnight .
>
> That surf rod was sold long ago and to this day I
> am always looking for blanks that offer the most
> advanced performance possible but at the same time
> I'm also thrilled with the performance I currently
> get and that's a great feeling to have.
>
>
> I'm saddened somewhat by long time anglers who
> don't feel this way and are not happy with the
> performance they get , it's a horrible feeling .


Wait a minute... am I reading that right? Differences in rods made a difference in casting? I thought the prevailing 'theory' around here was the rod was irrelevant and casting was totally up to the fishermen.

Is it the rod or the angler?

So there is a science to rod building that actually DOES affect casting performance? Or, is it just a better rod and NOT built with science? Now I am so confused!

Thanks Gary Loomis! -And, MudHole... And, Get Bit OutDoors... for insisting!

[youtu.be]

[youtu.be]

[youtu.be]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2021 07:25AM by Kent Griffith.

Kent: Some people "believe" the rods they build cast farther and more accurately than "bought" rods but offer no physical proof of their belief. No harm done, but habitual failure to separate fact from opinion in areas such as finance and law is trouble.

Rod and rig definitely are a huge factor in distance, but the argument of rod vs angler has always been about accuracy. In which case it has much more to do with the angler and their ability to repeat motion and make fine adjustment. The best analogy I have is that if you give a sub MOA rifle to a novice shooter they will not shoot sub MOA. Same tool in an experts hands and it will shoot sub MOA consistently regardless of conditions. Apply that to fishing. If I give my 5 year old a handmade rod from Tom K. guarantee the cast is not going to be far or accurate. Considering they can backlash a cane pole LOL. Give it to me and vast improvement. Give it to a professional and ... The rigging matters but not nearly as much as the operator.

I have tried to argue in the past that insisting on "correctly" constructed rods for "performance" was shot down over and over. And even still, I have not been persuaded one iota to the contrary by numerous differing opinions that I have read based on various "new" theories.

So it came as a surprise this morning to read the following statement here on this forum... it is as if an echo of myself manifested as if by magic.


chris c nash Wrote:

> . Not only was I able to cast considerably
> further but the responsiveness , weightlessness,
> sensitivity and ability to put what I was throwing
> anywhere I wanted time after time truly blew me
> away . It literally made me a more successful
> angler overnight .
>

Conclusion: quality of rod performance does make a difference.

Aaaron and Phil, I get what you are saying, and I agree that even the best rod in the hands of an amateur will not produce "professional" results, but this is not what we are talking about here. We are talking about experienced anglers concluding that performance designed and constructed equipment is a game changer that up'd their game.

This is the ONLY reason I even bother with making my own rods. I KNOW the performance gain is there. Chris admitted it most strenuously above. Performance gear is a game changer. End of story. And this is what custom rod building should be all about. Yet more than half of the threads and discussion have absolutely NOTHING to do with performance or how to achieve performance rods. I see recommendations for simple spiral wraps with angular bends in the line through transition guides and side loading, and i am left baffled as to why this type of thing would be recommended when performance is the goal- then why go in the opposite direction is my point. And if someone wants a sensitive rod, why load it up with pretty decorations and coats of epoxy, and thread wraps extending beyond the guide foot, and in between and all up and down the blank and all coated in epoxy.

ADDED: If custom rods are for improved performance, then why recommend as the prevailing method of spiral wrapping to be a simple spiral? That is like telling someone who wants to fly to get on board the Wright Brothers plane when an F-18 is sitting on deck right next to it.

Bottom line, what custom rod building has become today is antithesis to what it should be. I am one of those who wishes to god we could separate out performance rod building from those who want the carpet and drapes to match. I'll never forget the post some guy made years ago when he started an entire thread about how he wants a blue reel so his combo all matched and looked so pretty down to even having blue line. Pardon me while I put my head out the window and gag.

So any threads with the words decorative or beautiful or pertain to "looks" in any way are completely avoided like the plague! Not interested. Give me the science only.

I hope this comment is well taken for what it is intended, that custom rod building is and should be all about one thing and one thing only- the construction of performance rods designed to exceed the majority of quality level found in the commercial markets. Custom rod builders who are concerned about pretty should be separated out from the science.

Look, we flew to the moon and back because of science. If they had been more concerned about making rockets look pretty we never would have gotten off the ground. Chris, and myself want to get off the ground yet I am "feeling" kind of lost in the let's paint the rocket pretty colors crowd.

chris c nash Wrote:

> . Not only was I able to cast considerably
> further but the responsiveness , weightlessness,
> sensitivity and ability to put what I was throwing
> anywhere I wanted time after time truly blew me
> away . It literally made me a more successful
> angler overnight .

Performance and pretty. Oil and water.

Science rules! Pretty drools! I insist! lol

Not one thread wrap beyond the science of why. Decorations not allowed. Color matching is for interior decorating.

Spine lives matter!



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2021 09:07AM by Kent Griffith.

To clarify above opinion, I use to work for NASA back in the 90's and early 2000's as a subcontractor building electronics and communications systems.

I had to think in terms of science only. I did not get that job thinking in terms of how to make things pretty or decorative or color matched. I am educated and trained for science. To me pretty is irrelevant. The only "pretty" I had to deal with was in making wiring and fiber optic cables look neat and dressed out for ease of tracing.

NASA does not allow this:


This is the "pretty" that NASA expects... and this is as close as I ever got to "decorative wraps."



No hippie vans on NASA property! lol







Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2021 10:01AM by Kent Griffith.

A rifle in good condition will always shoot to the same spot. It's the shooter's job to align the rifle to that spot. A rod with a secure tip-top will always cast to the same spot. 100% of casting accuracy is achieved by the angler, not the rod - or the rod builder.

Phil Ewanicki Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A rifle in good condition will always shoot to the
> same spot. It's the shooter's job to align the
> rifle to that spot. A rod with a secure tip-top
> will always cast to the same spot. 100% of casting
> accuracy is achieved by the angler, not the rod -
> or the rod builder.

Chris says otherwise:

chris c nash Wrote:

> . Not only was I able to cast considerably
> further but the responsiveness , weightlessness,
> sensitivity and ability to put what I was throwing
> anywhere I wanted time after time truly blew me
> away . It literally made me a more successful
> angler overnight .


And this debate will rage ever on!

I'll take the F-18 over Wright Brothers plane every day of the week.

Kent Griffith Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> chris c nash Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I personally only questioned the performance of
> my
> > gear months after I dropped fishing freshwater
> and
> > took up surf fishing very seriously .
>
> > Nothing I have purchased in all my years
> changed
> > the entire game for me then that one purchase
> did
> > . Not only was I able to cast considerably
> > further but the responsiveness ,
> weightlessness,
> > sensitivity and ability to put what I was
> throwing
> > anywhere I wanted time after time truly blew me
> > away . It literally made me a more successful
> > angler overnight .
> >
> > That surf rod was sold long ago and to this day
> I
> > am always looking for blanks that offer the
> most
> > advanced performance possible but at the same
> time
> > I'm also thrilled with the performance I
> currently
> > get and that's a great feeling to have.
> >
> >
> > I'm saddened somewhat by long time anglers who
> > don't feel this way and are not happy with the
> > performance they get , it's a horrible feeling
> .
>
>
> Wait a minute... am I reading that right?
> Differences in rods made a difference in casting?
> I thought the prevailing 'theory' around here was
> the rod was irrelevant and casting was totally up
> to the fishermen.
>
> Is it the rod or the angler?
>
> So there is a science to rod building that
> actually DOES affect casting performance? Or, is
> it just a better rod and NOT built with science?
> Now I am so confused!
>
> Thanks Gary Loomis! -And, MudHole... And, Get Bit
> OutDoors... for insisting!
>
> [youtu.be]
>
> [youtu.be]
>
> [youtu.be]



Kent , it's always good to make sure the person you're calling out is the one that actually said the thing you accuse them of saying . I PERSONALLY NEVER SAID THE ROD doesn't matter , a few select individuals are the ones who have always said the opposite I'm not one of them . from my experience the rod makes a huge difference and I don't need to measure distance or come up with charts to prove it . Like I said the differences in rod performance between a top shelf rod and and much less expensive rod was as obvious as obvious can possibly get to me . I NEVER EVER said I was not thrilled with rod performance , I love the performance I get compared to the performance much lesser rods offered .

When I was starting out I said facts would of helped but I took a chance on a high end rod and it worked out . Only one person that i know of has a major issue with rod performance and needs facts because in his experience all rods perform equally regardless of the anglers ability .

Not seein' any actual info.

Phil Ewanicki Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A rifle in good condition will always shoot to the
> same spot. It's the shooter's job to align the
> rifle to that spot. A rod with a secure tip-top
> will always cast to the same spot. 100% of casting
> accuracy is achieved by the angler, not the rod -
> or the rod builder.


And a much higher end custom built rifle will shoot even more accurately at a greater distance . Just like that much higher end surf rod was able to cast to a spot repeatedly that the lesser rod wasn't even able to reach , the lesser rod came up between 17 to 20 yards short every time . The higher end surf rod also had smaller running guides and tip top which does indeed help with accuracy . It still had guides that were too large for ultimate accuracy but better than the previous . A higher end rifle with a more precise barrel will be more accurate than a cheaper rifle with poorer tolerances so a builder can indeed build a more accurate rod if ultimate accuracy is their goal . A smaller tip top opening will provide better accuracy as long as the line used is forgiving enough to clear it unobstructed . I use size 6 tip tops on all my surf rods while most use at least an 8,10 or even 12 .

A spin rod - or any fishing rod, can only to store enough potential energy to launch a weight tied to a line a distance two or three yards - regardless of the cost or the claims about the spectacular "power" of the rod. For proof tie a slingshot-like pouch to the rod tip-top, lash the butt of the rod to a chair leg, put a 3/4 ounce sinker in the pouch, pull the rod back as far as you dare, and let her rip! As usual, you will see that dreams and advertising hype do not reflect reality - but it's fun to pretend!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/2021 07:42PM by Phil Ewanicki.