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Ultralight guide reduction train for braid
Posted by: Eric Garza (---.burlingtontelecom.net)
Date: April 26, 2021 05:03PM

I plan on making a couple ultralight rods that I will use 8-10 lb braid on, probably either Sufix 832 or Power Pro. My typical UL reduction train is a Fuji 16H, 8H, 5.5M, then down to runners with KBs as needed. I have read in various places that since braid is softer with virtually no line memory, it does not benefit as much from the larger stripper guide. Can I go down to 12H, or 10H? Other parts of the reduction train would be scaled appropriately.

Thanks for your input!

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Re: Ultralight guide reduction train for braid
Posted by: Norman Miller (---)
Date: April 26, 2021 05:50PM

You can certainly try. I did a 6’6” ultralight for a friend using 12H, 6M, and 5.5L to size 4 or 4.5 runners can’t remember the runner size, but it doesn’t make much of a difference. It casted quite nice. I think I put the stripper about 18 to 19” in front of the reel spool and the choke about 19” in front of the stripper, used 9 guides total. Worked out pretty well with light braid and a small reel. If you don’t like it go back to 16H based reduction train.
Norm

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Re: Ultralight guide reduction train for braid
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: April 26, 2021 06:03PM

I argue that the difference in performance between a 16 stripper located where it is and a smaller stripper will offer no perceptable advantage in sensitivity/weight (the only reason for going smaller than 16) and may cost casting performance, especially if you at some time want to change lines to something less forgiiving. I would stick with the 16-8-5.5.

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Re: Ultralight guide reduction train for braid
Posted by: Norman Miller (---)
Date: April 26, 2021 06:54PM

I argue that you don’t know until you try it. Very few people switch to heavier line or a larger reel with an ultra light rod. Most want to keep things as small and as light as possible. With heavier powered rods from medium up you do lose some versatility if you want to use larger reels and or heavier line. Just my opinion.
Norm

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Re: Ultralight guide reduction train for braid
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: April 26, 2021 07:14PM

I don't disagree with your argument, Norman. I just don't see the potential up side. But it would be easy to tape up the options and see if one can see a difference. The tape for both guides will weigh about the same. Or could be made to.

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Re: Ultralight guide reduction train for braid
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.44.66.72.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: April 26, 2021 07:16PM

If you're not dead set on ceramic rings Minimas would buy you a bit larger ring I.D. I think a 12 stripper would work either way. If so, it raises your custom building to a higher level. No substitute for testing, unless maybe Norm's opinion. Lol I personally have not gone below 16H but I err on the versatility side (sometimes using mono/floro).

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Re: Ultralight guide reduction train for braid
Posted by: Eric Garza (---.burlingtontelecom.net)
Date: April 26, 2021 07:36PM

Thanks Lynn. I have not been impressed by Pac Bay's Minimas. I bought a few sets last year, but found a few defective guides (burrs on the rings, improperly suaged rings, etc.) so returned them. I did just buy a couple sets of SeaGuide's match guide with stainless steel rings and their Adaman PVD coating. The Gunsmoke PVD coating looked quite handsome to me. I will try them out to see how they feel, with an Alconite tip top.

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Re: Ultralight guide reduction train for braid
Posted by: Mark Talmo (---)
Date: April 26, 2021 07:43PM

Eric,
You have received very good advice from three respected, veteran builders and in-the-end, they basically agree. I (admittedly a humbled rookie) have always followed the KR Concept recipe of 16, 8, 5.5 and have not even considered a 12, 6, 5.5. If a compromise 14, 7, 5.5 does not appeal to you (lol), Lynn’s suggestion of no-ring Minima Ms is valid. I hope you try the 12, 6, 5.5!!! Nothing ventured = nothing gained. I am very interested how it works and am certain I am not the only one = please keep us posted!!!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

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Re: Ultralight guide reduction train for braid
Posted by: Norman Miller (---)
Date: April 26, 2021 08:18PM

Eric, the SeaGuide HLG Match guides do look pretty nice, and at a reasonable price. I assume the MKG model would be used as the running guides. Might have to try some and see how they compare to the Minima M guides. The Adaman coating looks quite nice.
Norm

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Re: Ultralight guide reduction train for braid
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: April 26, 2021 08:38PM

You would only need 3 guide sizes on this rod. The first running guide is the choke guide. So a butt guide, one intermediate and then your smallest guides on out.

Let the line path determine the guide sizes. It's never wrong.

..............

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Re: Ultralight guide reduction train for braid
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: April 26, 2021 08:56PM

If you are using 8 lb braid, that has a diameter of about 3 lb mono. i.e. extremely limp. As a result, there will be next to no friction encountered during a cast - even when running through small guides all along the rod.

You do not say if your ultra light rod is a spinning rod or a casting rod.

If a spinning rod, just go with a size 10 high frame and then size 5.5 runners to the tip. Move the stripper down to about 25 inches so that the line will have calmed down a bit by the time it gets to the first guide and you will be good to go.

If building a casting rod - just use a size 8 stripper and then size 5.5 runners to the tip.

Again, move the stripper guide down the rod a bit so that the smaller first guide will be able to handle the line with no issues.

Build the rod with the two guide sizes and let us know how it all works out.

If you like. you can tape the guides in place, then wrap the guides as you remove the tape. Make sure that the guides are wrapped very tight. Then, without coating the thread wraps, take the rod fishing. That way, if you don't like the guide train for your style of fishing you simply cut off the guides and try again. Continue trying until you get the ultimate guide setup that you wish to have with this particular rod.

But, although there may be naysayers about only using two guide sizes that are small at that - you will never know if it will work for you unless you build it and fish with it.

Remember, I am suggesting these guide sizes with the understanding that you are only going to ever use 8 lb braid on the rod with nothing heavier.



Best wishes.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2021 09:02PM by roger wilson.

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Re: Ultralight guide reduction train for braid
Posted by: chris c nash (70.40.87.---)
Date: April 26, 2021 08:59PM

The KL16H has the height to match up well with the majority of small spinners and that's probably part of the reason Fuji doesn't even offer a smaller ring sized guide that's shorter in height than the 16H for a butt guide option in their KR guide train software. The 12H is approx 10 MM shorter in height than the 16H. That's my guess .

I just think the advantages to going to a 12H would be very minimal at best . I myself am guilty of picking and choosing certain Fuji KR guides that don't follow Fuji's exact recommendations, extremely minor things though like going with a KL25H and skipping the KL12H to go with the KL10H instead . I do this to eliminate wasted energy as minimal as that wasted energy may be it all adds up . I know with my particular reel and line choice a size 12 ring is not needed in that spot and choosing a ring size that restricts the line slightly more which would be a 10H is the better choice. When I say restrict I don't mean slowing the line down I mean allowing the line to move forward by eliminating excess space inside the ring which allows the line to move around more than it should instead of being directed forward . I love the KR guides especially the KL25H -KL10H to a 5.5 M on my 10'6" 1 3 ounce surf rod . It's a flat out awesome awesome performer but as expected the single foots are not to be abused and beat on . The KR double foot RV 's are much tougher . On my heaver surf rods I often go with the RV25 , RV 16 and then skip the KW12M and go with the KW10M straight to a KB 5 to KT 5's. I myself do not love that guide train , what I would really prefer would be skip the RV16 and and thats because the RV 16 is grossly oversized for it's purpose, with light braid it's a complete waste . I would much prefer a size 10 ring after the RV 25 just like I have on my KR single foot surf rod build mentioned above . OK enough of that the bottom line is It's always worth experimenting because each individual will typically have a different reel and a different line choice , things can work for one person and be a failure for the next .

Super light braid makes even mediocre layout's seem like real winners , don't be fooled into thinking everything's working to perfection , make sure to spool up with a heavier braid then you intend to fish with because a heaver line WILL reveal poor positioning and choices in guide's, sizing etc... where lighter braid will make it much much more difficult to hone in on problem areas.

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Re: Ultralight guide reduction train for braid
Posted by: Michael Sutheimer (---.wi.res.rr.com)
Date: April 27, 2021 03:41AM

I have built a couple ultralite spinning rods for trout fishing. One a 6 foot the other a 4 1/2. I am a fan of the minimas. I wanted the rods as lite as possible. Casting was of limited concern. Small streams very thick brush. Anyways I played around with things quite a bit. I went with the minima match size 8 then a size 4 low then size 4 f series. This is with a 1000 series reel and 6 or 8 pound braid. Works great. Fished the six footer all last season never once did I question any aspect of the setup. Tried the rod out in other situations. Performed as good or better than any other ul rods in my arsenal. Will give the the 4 1/2 a test run in a couple weeks.

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Re: Ultralight guide reduction train for braid
Posted by: Spencer Phipps (---)
Date: April 27, 2021 11:27AM

My 30+ year old European match rod has a 10 mm match stripper guide and 4 and 6 lb mono very well on a 2000 size reel, I use 8 lb. sometimes for steelhead.
The rod is rated one to four kilos, about 2 to 8 lb. test line. I have found no need to change the guide train. It casts a very long ways.

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Re: Ultralight guide reduction train for braid
Posted by: Spencer Phipps (---)
Date: April 27, 2021 11:33AM

My 30+ year old European match rod has a 10 mm match stripper guide and 4 and 6 lb mono very well on a 2000 size reel, I use 8 lb. sometimes for steelhead.
The rod is rated one to four kilos, about 2 to 8 lb. test line. I have found no need to change the guide train. It casts a very long ways.
The only braid I remember using on it is 4/10 Fireline, and had no problems.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2021 11:39AM by Spencer Phipps.

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Re: Ultralight guide reduction train for braid
Posted by: Alex Weissman (---)
Date: April 27, 2021 12:53PM

A few years ago Norman recommended a guide train for a light spinning rod I was building and it works very well. 5'6" xf Rainshadow Immortal. 10mm Minima to 6 to 5 running guides. I usually use 6 lb mono with a 25 Pflueger President. It's caught lots of bass up to about 4 lbs mostly in rivers.

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Re: Ultralight guide reduction train for braid
Posted by: Eric Garza (---.burlingtontelecom.net)
Date: April 27, 2021 01:07PM

Thanks Spencer. Any chance you could measure the distance from your reel foot to the stripper ring?

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Re: Ultralight guide reduction train for braid
Posted by: Eric Garza (---.burlingtontelecom.net)
Date: April 27, 2021 01:37PM

How far is the 10mm stripper from the reel stem? I am curious. Thanks!

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Re: Ultralight guide reduction train for braid
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.44.66.72.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: April 27, 2021 08:58PM

Eric, I wasn't suggesting swaged guides, I meant the ring-less offerings. I've had issues with their swaged rings at times.

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Re: Ultralight guide reduction train for braid
Posted by: Spencer Phipps (---)
Date: April 27, 2021 09:17PM

Eric, it varies some, it has about a 24 inch all cork grip, the reel is held by sliding rings as long days progress, I mess with the position to change the balance, or to give my muscles something different as the rod is a 3 pc 12 footer, thin wall large diameter blank, probably 3/4 inch, or so at the butt, that is only soft in the first 4 ft. It is in not way a noodle rod. My UL to M power spinning rods with fixed reel seats and 10 mm strippers are in the 19 inch range from the reel face, playing around with the distance a bit will let you find the spot for that reel and rod, but it seems to not move a huge distance one way , or another. I could send you some info gleened from Bob and Hunter McKamey some years ago if you're interested that started me experimenting.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2021 09:44PM by Spencer Phipps.

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