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Am I doing it right?
Posted by: Fred Zimmermann (---.raintreegraphics.com)
Date: April 23, 2021 02:37PM

So, I started building rods a few years ago. Some of my fishing buddies started urging me to build some for them. I look at this site, and I see how technical everyone is, very technical with the guides, how many, where to place and weight. the weight of the guides! Rods and there flexes, composites, graphite, fiberglass, actions and power. So the other day a co-worker wanted a 7ft inshore rod, MH fast action spinning rod that he could throw 1-2 oz with. I'm a casting rod guy, surf and bass. I don't know crap about spinning rods except in my mind, they all cast like crap. I don't want my build to be that way so I go to this site, look up the new Fuji static guide placement article in the Library, get me some American tackle snagless guides, (they look so cool) lay it out like it says, throw on a carbon fiber handle, wrap it in a candy apple color, take it out and cast 1 oz a country mile, 70-80 yards, easy. No exaggeration, I have a lake where I live and distances marked off for practicing my surf casting.Wow. And I'm a crappy spinning reel caster, I rarely throw the things. I've never cast a better spinning rod. Ever. Most of them I've ever thrown just kinda go clunk clunk clunk through the guides, and that is one reason I went to a baitcaster long ago. I'm not trying to get overwhelmed by all of it, trying to keep it simple. Why was it so easy for me to build something with just a small measure of care, so much better than the stuff they sell in stores for 50-100 bucks? Can I just keep it simple but still succeed? The coworker loved the reel, and paid me good money for it. I've done the same for numerous surf rods now, just use common sense on the guide placement under load, and everything is peachy. Very rewarding to say the least. I thank all of you for helping me. You are all truly polite and nice to us newbies. I don't chime in a lot here, but I'm always reading what y'all have to say. Best forum on the net.

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Re: Am I doing it right?
Posted by: Russell Brunt (---.hfc.comcastbusiness.net)
Date: April 23, 2021 03:10PM

Fred, the casting part everyone notices. What might not be so obvious is the fish fighting part. Better guides are smoother and guides put in the right spots preserve the power of the blank and allow you to move more line when you pump that fish up.

Like anything some people sweat the small details and some fall into the “good enough” category. Give it time and you will see where you end up.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

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Re: Am I doing it right?
Posted by: David Baylor (---.res6.spectrum.com)
Date: April 23, 2021 05:04PM

I certainly don't want to be a downer, and I am not saying you have any problems in your guide train, but casting a 1 oz weight ( I'm assuming it was a weight) a great distance, is pretty easy. Even with spinning gear. When you're casting that kind of weight, problems in the guide train, if there are any, are not going to show as much as it will when you're casting lighter weights.The momentum of the weight and the speed it is pulling line from the reel can over power a faulty guide train.

When you're casting lighter weights, details in guide layout become much more important. Again, I'm not saying you have a faulty guide train. Nor am I trying to discourage you in any way. I'm just trying to explain why you see people being so technical about guides and their placement.

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Re: Am I doing it right?
Posted by: chris c nash (70.40.87.---)
Date: April 23, 2021 05:09PM

If you really want to see what the best of the best spinning setup's are capable of build the rod around the specs of a specific reel model and specific line type and strength . You can really dial in truly astonishing performance levels if you get it right meaning choosing guides that perfectly match and line up with the height, diameter and design of the spinning reel spool . It does take a lot of experimentation with choker guide positioning and stripper guide positioning especially with lighter line choices.

The key to ultimate performance is not only getting the perfect guide height match but the rings inner diameter is especially critical , you want the smallest inner ring diameter that restricts excess side to side and up and down movement of the line while also avoiding going too small where it impedes the line in some way slowing it down . That's the puzzle you need to figure out to achieve the best possible performance and it can be frustrating .

If you change reels a lot or change line types or diameter a lot then it's not going to be possible to get the best possible performance out of a single build but the performance will still be great and more than satisfactory for all but the most discerning anglers

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Re: Am I doing it right?
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: April 23, 2021 05:15PM

Fred,
I will simplify it a bit for you.

In a nut shell.


"If it looks right, it is right!"

A person can use $2 guides and have excellent performing rods, if the sizes and heights of the guide are correct.

Or a person can use $50 guides and have terrible performing rods, if the sizes and heights of the guides are incorrect.

If a person that uses the rod being built a hard core fisherman that fishes for many many days out of the year, and goes aver hard fighting fish - then perhaps it makes sense to use more expensive guides. But, for many folks who might use a rod 10 or 20 times during the year and not on big or hard fighting fish - then, it likely doesn't make a lot of sense to spend $$$$$$$$$ for the guides on the rod.

Your build, your choice.

Take care

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Re: Am I doing it right?
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: April 23, 2021 05:34PM

Roger has it right, don't over think it. or think that you have to follow the "bible" of some builders. The fact is that line has a lot more to do with casting than guide selection and placement. Do a little research and build with what recommendations seem sensible for what you want to accomplish, and don't look back.

Using the Fuji site for guide placement? Then use Fuji guides. Lots of options on rings and finish, corrosion control makes a lot of sense.

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Re: Am I doing it right?
Posted by: Robert Flowers (---)
Date: April 23, 2021 06:04PM

My advice is simple as well. To really get dialed in, do a static line test with the rod tip having a line, and weight tied to it, and a weigh tied onto the line comin off of the reel, and trough the guides. Adjust the guides so that the fishing line closely follows the bend of the rod blank, without touching the blank. This will give you the correct number, and placement of guides'.

The guide placement charts for both Fuji, and American tackle are good starting points for guide placement. Sic, and Duralight/Nonolight guides will stand up to any kind of line you want to put through them. I have read from some in these threads that the American Tackle Microwave guides are stronger. I have had no failures with either. Fuji guides offer more options, so you can customize further. And there are less expensive brands as well that make great guides. Recoil guides are very tough, and made up of 100% titanium, and so are corrosion proof. following the same sizes and heights of the guides as the Fuji K series guides should give you similar Performance.

Good luck on your future builds.

Tight lines and frisky fish
RJF

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Re: Am I doing it right?
Posted by: Russell Brunt (---.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net)
Date: April 23, 2021 06:39PM

"If it looks right, it is right!"

I can't think of any statement I take more issue with.

I doubt any would have said initially that a spiral wrap "looks right:". I could say the same about micro guides, new guide concept, Fuji's rapid choke, carbon fiber grips, split grips, and so on.

In fact, perhaps the number one thing I tell my fellow salt water anglers who are looking for a better rod is, "You have to get over how you think a rod should look".

Sometimes our brain just knows what is right. Sometimes it gets things sideways and experiment/testing is needed. Thinking you know the answer without bothering to do any experiments/tests is the mother of all evils in many endeavors.


P.S. Not my intent to call anyone out and sorry if it came across like that. We have people here that fish different waters and catch different fish. I think it self evident that a 100# tarpon on a 8 foot MH blank would benefit from a different build than the same blank used for a 3# largemouth bass.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

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Re: Am I doing it right?
Posted by: Lance Schreckenbach (---.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net)
Date: April 23, 2021 07:37PM

The way I test new built rods is with the lightest lure that it will cast to the heaviest. Within those lures there will be sinking, slow sinking or suspending and top water. That way I can tell how the rod will perform and what it might be best for. Before I build it I have an idea of what I want it to be, and I use my past experiences to get it there. Sometimes, especially with a new type of blank, it turns out to be something other than what is was planned to be. Most of the time it is something I thought the rod would not be good at, but it was. I believe these attributes must be considered with any rod: Casting / lure performance / catching and hook set / angling a hooked fish / landing the fish / power / looks / longevity (will the guides corrode, grip come apart, etc.).

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Re: Am I doing it right?
Posted by: chris c nash (70.40.87.---)
Date: April 23, 2021 08:31PM

When using light braid in particular , it can be extremely difficult to tell how efficient a spinning rod guide layout performs because light braid will cast really well even with poor guide layouts due to it's limp suppleness. The best way I have found to gauge just how effective & efficient guide train layouts are is by test casting with a heavier braid then you plan on fishing with . This will quickly reveal what adjustments are needed if any because once you get the larger diameter line to perform really well the line you spool for actual fishing will be that much more impressive .

I don't worry nearly as much about other aspects of the build because I feel I have those covered already like fish fighting for example . Any rod I build has a very thorough and efficient running guide train that maximizes the rod's power to quickly land fish . I use the exact number of guides that the rod requires but I make sure to not over do it . The best way to achieve this as most know is by the two line static testing method not by some charts found on a website . I like bright attractive colors for the wraps but the wraps end immediately at the end of the guide foot , any trim rings etc.. must be a part of the short wrap. I do not tolerate any excess thread whatsoever because excess thread usually leads to more epoxy finish . I don't even use winding checks and there are no ramps before or after the reel seat .


I have built exclusively on CTS blanks and haven't used a ferrule wrap on those in years , when Stephen from CTS said no need for any ferrule wraps he meant it because these rods have held up to brutal conditions and not a hitch anywhere .

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Re: Am I doing it right?
Posted by: John DeMartini (---)
Date: April 23, 2021 10:12PM

Fred

Will Rogers, had a good saying "Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment"

When I built my first rod I took my best shot, I built it, fished it and learned from it and the learning process never ends. I look at that rod I built over 50 years ago I marvel at how crude it is compared to the rods I build today. Back then 5 guides on a 6 or 7 ft on a two piece rod was common, rod building practice has changed over the years fortunately for the better..

If you don't know crap about spinning rods how do you know they cast like crap. I respect your opinion because I feel that way about casting rods. Spinning rods are a new challenge for you. Treat it like you built your first casting rod and evolve from there.

The reason you produce a better rod than the stuff they sell in stores is your selection of the components, your careful preparation and assembly of the components and pride in your work..

To answer your question "Yes" you are doing it right, keep asking questions, develop your own style and don't get discouraged with all this technical stuff bantered about the forum.

Have fun

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Re: Am I doing it right?
Posted by: chris c nash (70.40.87.---)
Date: April 23, 2021 11:25PM

"Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment, I look at that rod I built over 50 years ago I marvel at how crude it is compared to the rods I build today"





My whole intention going in was to just build a select few rods and then I would be done but then a realized if I just build a few rods they will all be horrific looking because I'm just starting out . I need to build lots and lots of rods first so I develop into a good rod builder and then years & years down the road I'll be good enough to just build the select few I initially only planned on building all along.

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Re: Am I doing it right?
Posted by: Mark Talmo (---)
Date: April 25, 2021 09:30PM

Fred,
You’re doing it right if you’re not!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

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Re: Am I doing it right?
Posted by: Fred Zimmermann (---.raintreegraphics.com)
Date: April 26, 2021 06:56AM

David Baylor Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I certainly don't want to be a downer, and I am
> not saying you have any problems in your guide
> train, but casting a 1 oz weight ( I'm assuming it
> was a weight) a great distance, is pretty easy.
> Even with spinning gear. When you're casting that
> kind of weight, problems in the guide train, if
> there are any, are not going to show as much as it
> will when you're casting lighter weights.The
> momentum of the weight and the speed it is pulling
> line from the reel can over power a faulty guide
> train.
>
> When you're casting lighter weights, details in
> guide layout become much more important. Again,
> I'm not saying you have a faulty guide train. Nor
> am I trying to discourage you in any way. I'm just
> trying to explain why you see people being so
> technical about guides and their placement.

I get that. My client did want a rod that was 1-2 oz. for fishing heavy currents so that was the target. I'm going to try to compare it to a rod with the old guide placement to see if I was really just fooling myself casting that 1 oz.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2021 07:31AM by Fred Zimmermann.

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Re: Am I doing it right?
Posted by: Fred Zimmermann (---.raintreegraphics.com)
Date: April 26, 2021 07:01AM

Robert Flowers Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My advice is simple as well. To really get dialed
> in, do a static line test with the rod tip having
> a line, and weight tied to it, and a weigh tied
> onto the line comin off of the reel, and trough
> the guides. Adjust the guides so that the fishing
> line closely follows the bend of the rod blank,
> without touching the blank. This will give you
> the correct number, and placement of guides'.
>
> The guide placement charts for both Fuji, and
> American tackle are good starting points for guide
> placement. Sic, and Duralight/Nonolight guides
> will stand up to any kind of line you want to put
> through them. I have read from some in these
> threads that the American Tackle Microwave guides
> are stronger. I have had no failures with either.
> Fuji guides offer more options, so you can
> customize further. And there are less expensive
> brands as well that make great guides. Recoil
> guides are very tough, and made up of 100%
> titanium, and so are corrosion proof. following
> the same sizes and heights of the guides as the
> Fuji K series guides should give you similar
> Performance.
>
> Good luck on your future builds.
>
> Tight lines and frisky fish
> RJF


I've done this with all of my casting rods, but I've just gone by the Fuji guide placement with the spinning rods.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2021 07:29AM by Fred Zimmermann.

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