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Need advice on a Power Wrapper
Posted by: Fred Zimmermann (---.raintreegraphics.com)
Date: April 23, 2021 07:49AM

I guess it's time. I've made a few rods for customers now and at first I was impressed at my homemade equipment and how well I was doing. Then I quickly realized that my stuff was really subpar and I had a really hard time making things look "just right". Mainly, I want my rod locked in and a foot pedal, may as well buy one instead of trying to figure how to make one. I've looked at a few and what I need is a foot controlled power wrapper that has stands that you can lock your rod in, and is expandable so I can build up to 13' surf rods. The link is to the Alps machine, it seems to do it all and I can expand it for my needs. Any feedback would be helpful and very welcomed. I really want something that does most, and this one seems to. The Lathe is a plus.

[getbitoutdoors.com]

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Re: Need advice on a Power Wrapper
Posted by: Donald La Mar (---)
Date: April 23, 2021 09:08AM

Fred

I have what is essentially the same wrapper that was marketed under the ATC name. Cannot speak to all sections of a 13' rod mounted at the same time, but can tell you the foot controller is a weak link that works OK for a while then must be disassembled regularly and the plunger contacts cleaned. And even after cleaning it is only marginally OK.

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Re: Need advice on a Power Wrapper
Posted by: Fred Zimmermann (---.raintreegraphics.com)
Date: April 23, 2021 09:23AM

Donald La Mar Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fred
>
> I have what is essentially the same wrapper that
> was marketed under the ATC name. Cannot speak to
> all sections of a 13' rod mounted at the same
> time, but can tell you the foot controller is a
> weak link that works OK for a while then must be
> disassembled regularly and the plunger contacts
> cleaned. And even after cleaning it is only
> marginally OK.

Thank you for your input. So, do you still use that foot pedal? Can one foot pedal of one brand be used on another if that is the only weak link?

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Re: Need advice on a Power Wrapper
Posted by: Donald La Mar (---)
Date: April 23, 2021 09:34AM

Yes, I still use it. I don't sell rods, my annual production is low, and I frequently wrap in a free wheeling, manual mode. Again, the lathe works but can be really irritating at times. Unfortunately the next step up is a bit pricey in comparison.

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Re: Need advice on a Power Wrapper
Posted by: Donald La Mar (---)
Date: April 23, 2021 09:42AM

One other thing; there is no reverse. So, for example, if you need to unwrap a few turns to correct thread that has wrapped back over itself you have to manually turn the rod backwards while maintaining thread tension manually. It can be done provided the lathe pulley is within reach.

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Re: Need advice on a Power Wrapper
Posted by: Fred Zimmermann (---.raintreegraphics.com)
Date: April 23, 2021 09:52AM

Donald La Mar Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One other thing; there is no reverse. So, for
> example, if you need to unwrap a few turns to
> correct thread that has wrapped back over itself
> you have to manually turn the rod backwards while
> maintaining thread tension manually. It can be
> done provided the lathe pulley is within reach.


Very good to know, I want reverse.

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Re: Need advice on a Power Wrapper
Posted by: Lee Swaim (12.35.44.---)
Date: April 23, 2021 11:11AM

Fred,

I purchased the flex coat power wrapper/finishing machine. I've really liked it thus far. They made a plastic piece that "locks" the rod in the slip chuck so you can get your guides aligned correctly. Not sure what your budget is but I think it's well worth the money. I'd give them a call. I'm not affiliated with them, just a satisfied customer.

Take care

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Re: Need advice on a Power Wrapper
Posted by: Fred Zimmermann (---.raintreegraphics.com)
Date: April 23, 2021 01:48PM

Lee Swaim Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fred,
>
> I purchased the flex coat power wrapper/finishing
> machine. I've really liked it thus far. They made
> a plastic piece that "locks" the rod in the slip
> chuck so you can get your guides aligned
> correctly. Not sure what your budget is but I
> think it's well worth the money. I'd give them a
> call. I'm not affiliated with them, just a
> satisfied customer.
>
> Take care

I was just looking at that one. I like it, surely I can expand it to build surf rods. It figures they would have the good one. As long as it works and holds up, I'd say it's a fair price. Thank you!

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Re: Need advice on a Power Wrapper
Posted by: John Cates (---.austin.res.rr.com)
Date: April 23, 2021 02:22PM

Fred

I would like the opportunity to talk with you on the phone. I build and wire every machine that goes out the door. I do custom extensions all the time. Our motors are the best OEM quality. The new UMDC motor is my baby. I developed it over the last couple years and would like for you to have it on your bench.

Call me at 512-858-7742 or email at flexcoat@gmail.com

Flex Coat Company
Professional Rod Building Supplies
www.flexcoat.com

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Re: Need advice on a Power Wrapper
Posted by: Mark Talmo (---)
Date: April 23, 2021 05:00PM

Fred,
First of all, make certain you actually NEED and will USE the power capability. I have over $900.00 invested in parts and material for my power wrapper / lathe not to mention countless hours designing, machining and assembly yet rarely use the power for thread wrapping; with typically having to stop every few rotations to add or drop threads, I have better control by hand. But the power is a blessing for plain-Jane wraps, under-wraps and obviously for shaping foam of cork.
Secondly, reversibility is a must!. I wrap from front-to-back but obviously turn from back-to-front. When wrapping more intricate wraps, it is so much more practical, comfortable and less fatiguing to guide the thread onto the blank from low and in front rather than having to lift one's arm to guide the thread from high and behind. With most commercially available power wrappers, you are stuck with wrapping from behind and towards you. While a bit off-subject, I also employ a FlexCoat slip-clutch while wrapping which allows adjusting the rotational “drag” of the blank to retain thread tension and not back-up due to the thread tension caused by the thread tensioner at the spool.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

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Re: Need advice on a Power Wrapper
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: April 23, 2021 05:10PM

Have a chat with John Cates at Flex coat.

He has an excellent product that will do everything that you need it to do.

He both the DC controlled reversible head stock and also has separate rod stands available.

For the last many years, I have only been using DC gear motors for my wrapping and I could not be happier.

But the person that spoke of the foot pedal is spot on.

There are foot pedals on the market to control what ever motor you might use. But, as with many things in life - excellence comes at a price.

Best wishes

Roger Wilson

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Re: Need advice on a Power Wrapper
Posted by: Russell Brunt (---.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net)
Date: April 23, 2021 07:03PM

Roger I have not bothered to look into foot pedals yet. Clearly you have. I would suspect many of today's offerings are triac based. I could be wrong.

In short, if I were to convert an universal motor (Alps) wrapper to a DC motor with an out board DC power supply, would you put the pedal before the DC power supply or after? Assume I use a linear power supply with center tapped transformer, filter caps, and full wave rectification. The DC motor is rated for 120 VDC (two wire motor). I don't have to supply it that high of voltage but I'd like to get close. Low RPM with fine adjustment is the biggest concern.

I could be open to a switch mode power supply if it allowed me better control with a PWM based pedal. Just haven't looked into options.

Thanks for you time in advance.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

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Re: Need advice on a Power Wrapper
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.44.66.72.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: April 23, 2021 08:12PM

Talk to John.

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Re: Need advice on a Power Wrapper
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: April 24, 2021 07:00PM

Russell,
I do NOT use the same pedal for an AC motor as for a DC motor.

For an AC motor - in my opinion the best pedal on the market is either the Linemaster AC pedal. Very high industrial quality that is very very long lasting with excellent performance.
Essentially, the Linemaster AC pedal is a very good variable speed AC drill motor trigger controller that is sitting in a nice case that has a paddle on the end of the foot lever that causes the trigger to be depressed.

The other AC pedal is the one from Foredom. Again excellent very long lasting quality with very good linear performance.

--------------------------
With respect to foot pedal for DC motors.
For all of the DC motor work that I do, I use a foot pedal that contains a rack and pinion gear setup driving a very high quality potentiometer of a value that matches the needs of the DC motor speed controller that I use.
The speed controllers are pulse width controllers using a high switching frequency that is above audible range and also which has a speed change that goes from 0-100%.

For a power wrapper, you want the motor to stop completely when the foot is off the pedal. This means that when the pedal is placed in the minimum position, that the speed will be 0 rpm.

If you are not careful, you can purchase a speed control that has a speed change of 5% or 10% to 90% or 95%.
But you want a speed controller that will be able to change speed from 0-100%.

A typical foot pedal goes through an arc of about 25 degrees. If a pedal is driving a rotary potentiometer - a rotary potentiometer needs to rotate 270 degrees for full resistor movement.
This is where "Rack and Pinion" comes in. The rack is a toothed bar that is attached to the underside of the pedal on which the operators foot rests. The pinion is a matched toothed gear that fits on the potentiometer.

So, now as the rack moves a little, the gear and the potentiometer moves a lot due to the gear ratio of the rack to the pinion.

If you do with a DC motor, the typical motor of choice is either a 12 volt or a 24 volt gear motor. In recent years, many folks including myself find that a gear motor that has a top rpm of 300-500 rpm is perfectly satisfactory for power wrapping. By using a motor with a top speed as listed, one gets ultra ultras sensitive control of the turning of the rod when one wants to start a wrap or do complicated wraps.

----------------
A dc motor direction can be easily reversed by simply switching the power leads. So, one can implement a very simple reverse switch for a DC motor by using a double pole double throw switch. Bring the power leads into one end of the 6 terminals on the switch. Then, along with the two power leads add a jumper wire to each connector that goes to one end of the switch. Then, take the two jumper wires, and cross over the switch and put connectors on the ends of the jumper and place the crossed wire connectors on the opposite end of the switch from the end that has the power leads entering the switch.

Then, put connectors on a pair of wires and connect the wire pair to the two open center leads of the switch and connect this wire to the motor. Turn on power and the motor runs one way. Flip the reversing switch and the motor is running in the opposite direction.

Then, one needs to add a power supply in front of the speed controller of either 12v or 24v - depending on the motor with a current rating that will drive the motor to its full ability.

Best wishes.

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Re: Need advice on a Power Wrapper
Posted by: Brian Babcock (---.aaa.bbb.ccc.bctel.net)
Date: April 24, 2021 07:33PM

For anyone reading this and wondering about foot pedals, I’ll share my experience. I build rods full time so my machine gets a workout! Several years ago, I got tired of going through two pedals a year. After a bit of research here, I decided to try the Foredom pedal. That was several years and over a thousand rods ago. Still working flawlessly! If you search Foredom foot pedal conversion, you should find a post I did outlining the wiring pricedure. If you’re frustrated with those cheap pedals, do it! You won’t regret it.

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Re: Need advice on a Power Wrapper
Posted by: Mark Hahn (---.212.40.162.dynamic.ip.windstream.net)
Date: April 24, 2021 11:17PM

I have several and finally bought an ALPS. I love the darn thing. I highly recommend it because it offers so many quality components over the others I own.

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Re: Need advice on a Power Wrapper
Posted by: Fred Zimmermann (---.raintreegraphics.com)
Date: April 26, 2021 07:45AM

Well, I have a lot to think about! Thanks for all the replies. It does look like it will cost me a bit more with the extension I will need for surf rods.

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Re: Need advice on a Power Wrapper
Posted by: John Cates (---.austin.res.rr.com)
Date: April 26, 2021 12:32PM

A good way to use ours without the extension is to just move the motor back, off the machine to get the extra length.

Flex Coat Company
Professional Rod Building Supplies
www.flexcoat.com

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Re: Need advice on a Power Wrapper
Posted by: John Cates (---.austin.res.rr.com)
Date: April 26, 2021 12:36PM

Also, just had this review left by a customer:

I have been wrapping with a hand wrapper and finishing with a 9rpm finishing motor without a clutch. When I watched the “Catch the Wave” video, I realized I have been finishing the wrong way! We ordered it and I could hardly wait for it to arrive. Not only is it incredible for finishing but helps to speed up the guide wraps. Even with just using the clutch to turn it, it is way faster than the standard hand wrapper. This machine simply makes building rods faster and easier!

Flex Coat Company
Professional Rod Building Supplies
www.flexcoat.com

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Re: Need advice on a Power Wrapper
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: April 26, 2021 03:45PM

Fred,
Just for your information:

When I built my latest power wrapper, I went to the Aluminum yard and went into the surplus section.
I found a 2x4 aluminum channel 10 feet long for the wrapper bed.
Then, I stopped by my friend who is the owner of a machine shop and had him mill 3 slots down the bed - in series with space between them unmilled to hold the channel together.
Then, to allow the bed to move, I put skate board ball bearings on the inside of the channel so that I can roll the rod by my work station in the center of my long rod bench. That way, I bring the rod to me, rather having to move up and down the rod as I build a rod:

Pictures:

[www.rodbuilding.org]

The head stock with dc motor, keyless chuck and cogged xl pulleys and belts.
[www.rodbuilding.org]

Example of the rod rests that I use to support the rods:
[www.rodbuilding.org]

Example of the head stock with an added Shank to adapt the taig 3/4 x16 threads to the 1/2 inch plain shaft that fits into the keyless chuck on the head stock. Then, a standard Taig 3-Jaw chuck is screwed onto the shank.
I also modified the jaws of the Tiag chuck by milling the face of each jaw into an inner radius to better match the typical 1 to 1 1/2 inch rod grip diameter. By milling the jaws, very little pressure is required to hold the grip nicely and not leave any marks on the grip:

[www.rodbuilding.org]

--------------------------------
Yes, when one adds up the components, there are a few $$ involved, but for myself the wrapper has been perfect for my various rod building chores.

p.s.
The 24 volt dc gear motor is driven by a 24 volt power supply which started its life as an amplifier for a Hammond Church Organ.

The rod rests use kitchen cutting board for a base, aluminum stock for the vertical and horizontal members and Patio door rollers with O rings in the roller groove.

The rod bench is just a long section of Kitchen counter top supported by folding legs to allow quick disassembly if needed. The bench is long enough for the 10 foot wrapper bed to move all of the way from each end to the other - to access the bed, without my having to move from my work station in the center of the rod bench.

The foot pedal for the control box to control the motor uses a pedal that contains a rack and pinion to drive a military quality linear potentiometer that is rated for over a million rotations without failure. There is no spring in the pedal so if the motor is turning and the foot is lifted off, the motor will continue to turn at the same speed. Thus, the power wrapper will wrap rods in either direction, apply finish in either direction at any speed up to the maximum speed of the motor and chuck and if turning slowly when the foot is lifted off of the pedal - the wrapper will function as a dryer, turning in the direction of choice at any speed from 1 rpm up to the maximum wrapping speed.

-----------------------------
Just a few ideas.

By the way - the aluminum channel that I use for the wrapper bed cost me $23 at the surplus dept of the aluminum supply yard.

So, if you are thoughtful and willing to do some shopping the cost can be quite reasonable for the things you need for a great power wrapper.

p.s.
If you don't want to build your own, just talk to John at Flex Coat and have him set you up with one of his units. In a word - they work!

Be safe



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/26/2021 09:04PM by roger wilson.

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