Hope someone out there can help me get a rough idea on a suggested starting point for Microwave 18-8 guide set for an 8'6" Bushido musky XHF blank. I'm questioning the # of runners provided and am leaning toward adding at least one #8 runner. Never built a musky with Microwaves and wasn't sure if I even should go with 18-8 or step down to a 12 for the stripper? If someone could at least give me a starting point and some experience with these guides for a musky rod, I'd appreciate any feedback! Thanks in advance...

Chuck

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Prior Lake Rod Building Guild
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Go with the 18/8 for a musky rod. Depending on the blank you may need to add a runner. Always best to order one or two extra. Use the static load test to determine how many strippers needed. Bushidos are pretty stout so you should end up with 9 or 10 guides total. The spacing recommended on the microwave packaging has been spot on for me.

Without knowing the reel and line choice it's tough to recommend anything .

Never mind didn't realize this was a casting outfit.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2021 03:25PM by chris c nash.

I would recommend either the 18 or the 12 with double foot running guides... size is reel dependent

_______________________________
God Bless, Don Morse

800-516-1750 ext. 1207 / don@americantackle.us

Rod Building..... It's What We Do.

There must be an article or a pamphlet devoted to species-specific guide trains, or rod component retailers are missing the boat.

Hey Don,

Thanks! I was thinking a lower profile Lews Super Duty reel. That’s why I’m debating on the sz 12. Was going to do single foot but you suggest double instead? Want to get this right the first time.

Chuck

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Prior Lake Rod Building Guild
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Chuck Brezen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey Don,
>
> Thanks! I was thinking a lower profile Lews Super
> Duty reel. That’s why I’m debating on the sz
> 12. Was going to do single foot but you suggest
> double instead? Want to get this right the first
> time.
>
> Chuck



Single foot will hold up great, if I was building for myself that is what I would run and the 12mm are perfect for the low pro Lews.. if it is for someone I do not know or if they are harder on gear you cannot go wrong with the doubles. It also depends on the size lures you are slinging.. spent a few times pitching and wearing myself out with pounders.

_______________________________
God Bless, Don Morse

800-516-1750 ext. 1207 / don@americantackle.us

Rod Building..... It's What We Do.

I wouldn’t personally put a single foot stripper (or whatever a MW stripper guide is supposed to be called) on a Muskie rod. I’m not sure I would do it on running guides either. Throwing lures that weigh several ounces on braided line is big test if you get a wind knot. I can’t see any benefits of a heavy system designed for the coils coming off of a spinning reel on a baitcasting reel where that absolutely doesn’t happen. If you look at the AT sketch of the waving line coming off of a bait caster, that won’t happen with an appropriately set reel and Muskie sized lures.

You’ll likely put more weight on your rod than with a more conventional double footed guide system. I’ve fished with well known and exceptional Muskie fishermen and guides (I never became what I would consider to be competent). I’ve been to a few Muskies Unlimited events, worked Minnesota sportsmen’s shows, and attended Muskie related fundraisers. I’ve shopped at the several legendary retail shops in Wisconsin and Minnesota. As an experienced observer, I’ve never seen any guide train resembling what is being proposed. I advise that if you are getting far away from the convention of experienced experts, that you do it for very well thought out reasons. Occasionally, breaking the mold does pay. I’m just seeing a meaningless to negative risk/reward ratio in this case.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/24/2021 01:58PM by Kendall Cikanek.

Hi Guys,

Chuck, the choice is yours on whether you want to start with the 18 or 12, as well as where to place them. What might effect your decision is what exact blank you are using, reel size, line/lure etc. What I mean is the reel size could determine the best height of the secondary ring (or even size) as well as the line/lure determining the size of the running guides you would prefer. Then adjusting distance and the final layout (number of guides) according to style, tastes, or static deflection. Many use standard layouts for MWG casting versions but others prefer to place the stripper close or further away depending on preference or perceived effectivity. To see how some relative rods could look check our latest In Focus for pike fishing in Sweden; [www.youtube.com]

Chuck, your choice is sound when considering the MWG system for this rod. The MWG casting stripping guide will funnel line through the secondary ring while the primary ring acts as a bumper preventing line override if needed because line can have motion described as oscillation which isn't just circular like what is obvious to see on a spinning rod. This design also allows a higher ring location in a substantial frame design for support of a smaller secondary ring allowing one to drop ring sizes substantially in the subsequent running guides. This will reduce weight in the tip section, help balance a rod better, and provide sizing flexibility while maintaining line speed and control for maximum efficiency. Capturing and controlling line as quickly as possible is never a bad thing, the fact is that stripper and running guide choice has a lot to do with effectivity of a rod and the angler performance so choosing the most effective and efficient system possible is always a good thing.

Kendall, the MWG stripper is in fact called a stripper. Generally the first guide in the train is called a stripping guide or stripper and the MWG system is no different. The 18/8 and 12/6 are double foot snagless options, only the 10/5 & 7/3 are single foot designed. That said while I prefer the DF for heavier builds, when wrapped correctly there should be little concern whether to use a SF option or not on heavy rods, even for muskie. Regarding breaking the mold for muskie, I personally think that to advance technique, designs, and performance is exactly what custom rod building is all about. I suggest to all that considering new products and ideas is a good thing. For years I have looked at the muskie market as unchanging and relatively antiquated with the exception of a few forward thinking brands who are bringing anglers into the modern age of rod design. I do recognize that it can take time for the mainstream to catch on though. Interestingly the last half dozen years or so I have learned a lot when catering to European design preferences supplying rods, reels, and lures to several major predator markets, including to the Scandinavian pike anglers. I have learned that generally they expect the most advanced technically effective blanks and parts possible for their rod designs. After spending time fishing with them I could see that the deigns make perfect sense with proven results to accepted concepts. And I believe that there is common similarity between the two markets which US anglers should consider (and vice versa). To that, I see no negative risk to designs that are in many ways similar to exactly what Chuck is considering in this case.

Respectfully,

Darrin Heim
American Tackle Company

I agree that Muskie fishermen are very conservative with their gear choices. I had a few look very sideways at my one-piece framed Calcutta and Millionaire, long after those reels were common. However, there is a lot that can wrong with Muskie fishing, and you do typically get very few chances with them. The problem I see with this system is that a lot of weight is invested in the big ring that was never designed for casting applications. In a reel with a level wind, much of the line control has already happened through a very small ring or slot on the reel. Even if the reel guide is cranked all the way to one side, the trigonometry doesn’t work out for a big ring, that is very close to a small ring, to do very much. Braided line, being pulled by 2 ounce to almost a pound lures, doesn’t have memory coming off the side of a rotating spool. I’ve watched this thousands of times. The industry certainly accepted your well designed Aero reel seats. The industry doesn’t seem to be accepting the idea of Microwave casting guides.

After using a heavy Microwave stripper, going to single foot runners doesn’t end up in a lighter rod. It’s a rod that weighs the same or more, but has guides with less secure attachments. It doesn’t gain back any advantage in enhanced stripping guide performance. You may disagree, but I think it would be impossible for you to prove otherwise. Let’s get back to what can go wrong Muskie fishing. Popular Minnesota Muskie lakes have quite a bit of east/west reach which matches the predominant wind direction. Leech Lake seems to always have a 10-15MPH wind. Vermilion can be very calm to very windy. Quite often a person is throwing some big planks into these breezes. Cutting the big jerkbaits, and then switching to “figure-eighting” them at the boat, can introduce tangles. This riskincreases when you’ve been doing this for hours. The big inline spinners can twist the line a lot, especially if fouled. The force of a big bait leaving an eight foot rod is quite something, as well.

I do want to compliment how incredibly talented your team is at internet forum based marketing. I’ve never seen a better effort. I have not seen anything dishonest or unethical, but American Tackle uses the “Rodbuilding” system far better than any of their competitors. From my observations, your company has a true mastery of marketing.

Chuck,
I build primarily Musky rods, but also quite a few others, and have built with both MW18 & MW12 sets. I prefer the MW12's because of their smaller rings, and find that they do cast better based on my own experiences. I've fished for Muskies for over 45 years, and am fortunate enough to live in a place where there are probably 100 Musky lakes to choose from within an hours drive, so I try to fish as much as possible. For a typical Med Hvy rod rated up to 3 oz, I would go with MW12's in either single or double foot. SF will allow the blank to act more like it was designed to, but if the rod will see harsher duty (or someone that is tough on equip, which accounts for A LOT of Musky people), definitely go with double foot. I have used MW12 single foot sets on rods rated up to 6 oz with absolutely no issues, and man do they cast. For a typical heavy action rod rated to 8 oz, I'll use double foot running guides for the added frame strength. I prefer the MW12's on all size rods for my own use, but for XXH rods rated to throw lures above 8 oz, MW18's are fine, and the frames of the 8mm running guides are more than strong enough for heavy baits thrown all day by people hard on their equipment. When you refer to the Bushido Musky 8'6" XHF, I'll assume that you are talking about the 3K's, which work awesome with the MW guides. I've built on all 3 weights of the 3K's with Microwaves, TiForged, and Fuji Ti/Torzite guides. The XHF is rated to 6 oz, so depending on who the rod is for, would determine if I would use SF or DF running guides. If I were building this for someone that appreciates, respects, and takes care of their tools, that wanted this for all around use, I'd use a standard 9 pc set of MW12's with single foot runners. You could add a extra runner if you wanted, but is not necessary. For an 8'6" rod, I'd keep the 12/6 DF stripper approx 22"-24" in front of the reel seat, and start the 5.5mm runners 11"-13" in front of that. Fill in the rest of the runners accordingly. I'll use 9 guides on rods up to 9', and 10-11 guides on 9'-10' rods depending on the blank used. Hope this helps, and feel free to message with any questions.

Thank you everyone for the great (and detailed) answers! I knew I could count on you folks to point me in the right direction. I'm really excited to move forward on this project and feel very confident on how to proceed. Thank you so much for all your great feedback!

Chuck

><))))">….><))))">….><))))">….Just Fish

Prior Lake Rod Building Guild
Instagram @pl_rod_building_guild