I have been looking at Microwave guides, and reading reviews. Lots of people think highly of them. Can anyone point me to data that looks at the casting distance one might get from them vs, for example, a Fuji KR Concept setup? I have been using Fujis for years and have been pleased. Always happy to try something new if there is good reason to do it. One reason I hesitate is that the running guides for the Microwave sets look a lot heavier than similar ring sized Fuji runners.

Also, a related question: For the Microwaves, why not just make a much taller small-ringed guide for the stripper? Does the larger initial guide actually do anything useful? It does not seem to me that it does.

Thanks for any responses.

At some point you reach a place of diminishing returns. If you take all the modern guide systems and set up each one correctly for any given rod, you are unlikely to find more than a 1% to 2% difference between any of them. So you have to take your pick as to what appeals to you and the particular task your type of fishing entails.

On the MicroWave stripping guide - simply using a very high frame, small ring guide for that purpose won't work anywhere near as well. The combination of the two guides in close proximity does make a difference.

.............

"Can anyone point me to data that looks at the casting distance one might get from them vs, for example, a Fuji KR Concept setup"



There is no data on that . I agree 100% about a Microwave guide setup and a Fuji KR setup essentially performing very similar in distance and feel . I myself prefer the Fuji KR guides and one of the biggest reasons is exactly what you stated which is the running guide choices that come with the Microwave kits aren't small enough for me .

I have found the Microwave 30/10 system to work incredibly well for surf rod strippers especially when using braid 20 pounds and under . The 50/30 system is way way too large if using braid even heavier braid in my testing . The Fuji KL 25H and the Fuji KL 20H are awesome performers and I just finished building a CTS 10'6" 1 -3 ounce surf rod with a layout of Fuji KL 25H , KL12H , KW 5.5M to KB 5 , KT 5 runners and it's performance is even better than I expected . My heavier surf outfit uses a double foot RV 25, RV16, KW10M , KB 5 to KT 5 runners .

As said the Microwave 30/10 performs just as impressively . It's really a flip of a coin to me.

Lighter runners with Fuji, more ring material, size, and finish options, and I like the looks of the Fujis better.

I always use standard guides because the microwave is an extreme severe choke point causing line to overrun the microwave guide because line can not flow through it as fast as it comes off the reel causing the line to fly past the microwave guide and having to do not 1 but 2 U-turns to find its way back to the microwave guide and through it.

Does the microwave guide mute down line oscillations? Yes it does. But too quickly in my opinion. There is a reason engineers created a gradually diminishing oscillation muting guide system that is more like a long funnel to spread out the line oscillation dampening effect, rather than do it in one guide.

The idea that the microwave guide stops line oscillation cold up front and allows straight line to flow through the rest of the guides is behind it without the line touching the guide in a way that causes increased line flow resistance is the reasoning for longer casts some claim, rather than traditional allowing line oscillations to slowly dampen through half of the guides which is claimed increases line resistance in each of the oscillation dampening guides and reduces casting distances.

My vote is for standard engineering and gradual oscillation dampening rather than instant dampening and experience line overshooting the microwave guide. The following image was taken from a sales video for the microwave guide.





Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2021 08:02AM by Kent Griffith.

I prefer the Microwave guides for a variety of reasons:

- Increased distance
- Better feel (fewer vibrations)
- Less effort required to achieve the same distance

My opinions are based on objective and subjective data. When the Microwave system was introduced a few years ago, I conducted some scientific tests to compare the distances acheived with 2 identical blanks - one set up with the standard sgude train (cone of flight) and one with the MW20 system. I then proceeded to use the same reel and cast the same lure on a football field 10 times with each rod and measure the distances. Using a soft mono, a stiff mono, and a light super line, the MW20 consistently outdistanced the standard guide train by a measurable distance, in the 5% range. Of more importance to me was the difference in the feel and the ability to use less effort to achieve the same distance, enabling me to focus more on accuracy.

As to the weight of the running guides, my experience is they are very light and the oscilations of the rod are minimized as a result.

One final note: at 70 years old, I'm not sure I could even wrap a guide as small as the KR system!

I have tried and tested them all; cone of flight, new guide concept, microwave system, KR concept, even the European style Match guide set ups. My preference is the KR concept, based on both objective and subjective results, mostly done with side by side comparisons. For all of my personal rods, I use the KR concept, and have never looked back. However, I almost exclusively use braided line. If I’m using mono of fluorocarbon above 10# test I will use the NGC. There is no doubt that the rapid choke concepts (microwave, KR, and even NGC) out perform the old fashioned cone of flight. As far as the microwave and KR concept are concerned they are both very nice and cast extremely well with a slight edge to the KR concept. I personally think the KR concept is more versatile than the Microwave system, but that’s me, I like the ability to customize. To me, the microwave system is basically a Kit with a one size fits all concept, but it does work well, and a lot of people like it. It going to be a personal choice as to the guide system you like best. My thoughts are to try both of them and determine which one is the best fit for you.
I’m 75 years old and have no problems wrapping micro guides, even the extremely small ones. It no different than any other guide, except you have less wrapping to do.
Norm

I am using microwaves for some years now for my clients and I never loked back. Great cast, line control and accuracy is a fact. Also they are the most durable guides I have ever worked with. Rods that have dropped, hit the deck, car ''accidents'' and the guides are there without a problem.
One final note: They also looked veeeery good on a rod. In my shop everybody goes to check the rods with the Microwaves on them first.

If you can't find it ... build it!

Kent Griffith Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I always use standard guides because the microwave
> is an extreme severe choke point causing line to
> overrun the microwave guide because line can not
> flow through it as fast as it comes off the reel
> causing the line to fly past the microwave guide
> and having to do not 1 but 2 U-turns to find its
> way back to the microwave guide and through it.
>
> Does the microwave guide mute down line
> oscillations? Yes it does. But too quickly in my
> opinion. There is a reason engineers created a
> gradually diminishing oscillation muting guide
> system that is more like a long funnel to spread
> out the line oscillation dampening effect, rather
> than do it in one guide.
>
> The idea that the microwave guide stops line
> oscillation cold up front and allows straight line
> to flow through the rest of the guides is behind
> it without the line touching the guide in a way
> that causes increased line flow resistance is the
> reasoning for longer casts some claim, rather than
> traditional allowing line oscillations to slowly
> dampen through half of the guides which is claimed
> increases line resistance in each of the
> oscillation dampening guides and reduces casting
> distances.
>
> My vote is for standard engineering and gradual
> oscillation dampening rather than instant
> dampening and experience line overshooting the
> microwave guide. The following image was taken
> from a sales video for the microwave guide.
>
>

Kent,

I've not experienced any line overshoot with the MicroWave guides. I think the photo you linked to is showing something else regarding a manually induced "birds nest." If you back the video up just a second or so, you'll see a large tangle come off the reel. That's the overshoot you're seeing. This won't happen with a normal cast.

................

In my experience Microwave guides are head and shoulders above anything else on the market for most applications. I've experience no "choke point" issues with these guides. I've actually experienced the exact opposite. All line whipping downstream of the stripper guide is eliminated, making for a much smoother and longer overall cast. I've built with all the best from Fuji and while they are great guides, the Microwave completely changes the game. Build with a full set of AT titanium runners and you have about the best performing guide train on the market.

Don't forget "Line choice" meaning braid on the lighter side is by far the biggest reason the Microwaves and KR concept work so well . I have a spinning reel that has over a 75 MM spool diameter and with braid UNDER 20 pounds and under the Microwave 30/10 , Fuji KL25H and KL20H are the best performing longest and smoothest casting stripper and stripper combo choke setup's that I have tried and the only reason it works so amazingly well is the line choice .

Choose a different line type say mono over 12 pounds and braid in the 40 to 50 pound range and everything changes for the worse . My Shimano Stradic 4000FL has a spool diameter of 51 MM and throws smaller coils than my 75 MM reel , I can spool 30 pound braid on that ( I never do but I could) and it will still perform fantastic with the KL25H, KL20H and Microwave 30/10.

The Microwave has the advantage of choking down the braid quicker than the KR concept since with the Microwave as soon as the line reaches the stripper it's choked immediately afterward by the choke being a part of the same guide, with the KR concept the line first reaches the KL25H or KL20H and then it continues to travel for a short distance until it reaches the KL12H or KL10H which is further down the rod . The KL12H and KL10H are still not the choke point the line has to keep travelling down the rod even further so the systems are clearly different but both work amazingly well .

With light braid you don't want or need a gradual decline in guide sizes with mono you do .

I use the Microwave guudes because I feel there stronger, better built guides. The may both have similar castability, but I feel the construction of the Microwave guides is better. If your new to rod building there much easier to set up. Customers also like the way they look! I have done KR builds, and don't see why to use them over Microwave guides. I have fixed many KR guides because of eye issues, but never the Microwave guides.

I use the MicroWave family of guides on almost all of my rods. Personally, I find them to perform exactly as advertised. They are a breeze to set up, which makes them ideal for all skill levels of builder, but even more so for newer builders. They are a very durable guide and I've never had to replace or repair one. They look great and I've had many customers contact me unsolicited and praise the casting accuracy and distance achieved with the MicroWave guides over what they used to fish with. Customers who were first time MicroWave users ask for them again. The stripper guide funnels the line smoothly into the rest of the guide train to cut down on friction and resistance.

Thanks to everyone who responded, especially those who have used both Microwaves and Fuji KT and kindly shared your comparison. I am going to stick with Fujis, I think.

Here's an idea that I have employed myself when having a difficult time deciding .

Purchase a Microwave set and a Fuji KR guide train ( Not a Fuji KR kit ) at the same time , when they arrive together set one up taping on the guides and test cast . You have an entire month to return the ones you decide against this is the only way to be absolutely certain you make the best choice . As long as you don't mess with the guide feet (Grinding'Filing) you can return for a full refund.

Chris, I really like your suggestion! Put them head to head. I expect that the Microwaves will outperform the Fujis. And, you can’t beat the aesthetics of the MWs.

Chris, just wondering, which vendors offer a person a month to use there guides to test cast, and then return if not fully satisfied?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2021 07:14AM by Gary Weber.

Tom Kirkman Wrote:

> Kent,
>
> I've not experienced any line overshoot with the
> MicroWave guides. I think the photo you linked to
> is showing something else regarding a manually
> induced "birds nest." If you back the video up
> just a second or so, you'll see a large tangle
> come off the reel. That's the overshoot you're
> seeing. This won't happen with a normal cast.
>

I don't think you nor I could see it as it is happening so fast and most of us are not watching for it during a cast as our eyes are elsewhere. I believe it requires slow motion filming to capture as this sales video did.

The video was to demonstrate what happens under normal casting circumstances which includes bird nesting and other like wind knots, etc. So in my opinion the video is demonstrative of normal casting and clearly shows how line can overshoot the microwave guide under various circumstances of normal casting.

Maybe it won't overshoot every time, but the video is clear... use a microwave guide and what it shows can and will happen.

Concerning the microwave guide... I may be wrong, but it was not designed nor developed by an engineer like the standard traditional guide system has been carefully developed over many long years. Doug Hannon was not an engineer if I recall correctly. To me the microwave guide is more or less a sales gimmick idea. A way of making money from a product that is somewhat successful, but maybe not entirely sound physics. Anyone remember the helicopter lure?

I get it for the spinning rod and reel, but the microwave guide for a baitcast rod and reel? Now its really getting gimmicky. I'm already using small micro guides on my baitcast rods, so what would I have need of for the baitcast version of the microwave? To me there is no physical need for it whatsoever. So at this point I can only view it as a total gimmick idea and not much else.

As I see it, there is no acceptable time or condition when an overshooting line should happen as the slow motion video shows.

But hey, if it makes some company millions of dollars in sales why not? It can't really hurt anything, but on the other hand in my view it is not really helping anything either.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 04/23/2021 08:33AM by Kent Griffith.

Gary Weber Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Charles, just wondering, which vendors offer a
> person a month to use there guides to test cast,
> and then return if not fully satisfied?


I'm the one that said you have a month to test cast and my name is Chris but Charles is close enough . Many sponsors listed on the left side of the main forum page not only have 30 day return windows but they also carry the Microwave guide kits as well as carrying Fuji's full line of KR guides . There is no stipulation that says you cannot try the guides to see if they fit your needs or not during the 30 days . Just make sure the guides are not damaged or modified in any way before returning them. Guides will show zero signs of use even after extensive test casting .


Charles Backes : I do not doubt for a minute that Eric may end up choosing the Microwaves if he gets to test cast them.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/22/2021 10:35PM by chris c nash.

Kent,

No, there is no line overshoot on a standard cast with the MicroWave guides. The video is in slow motion and you can clearly see the tangle (bird's nest) come off the reel. This was done intentionally so that you could see how the Microwave butt guide handles such bird's nesst. If you watch videos of standard casts there is never any overshoot. Read the caption on your photo link "Birdsnest manually created to simulate effect." The same bird's nest fares much worse through a standard butt guide and usually hangs by the time it reaches the subsequent guide.

Doug Hannon developed the MicroWave system. He had a scientific mind and the MicroWave was only one of his inventions that greatly affected the fishing industry over several decades. He is credited with inventing the first weedless trolling motor propellors for Motor Guide. Also was the first to capture underwater videos of bass habits and patterns and enlightened many fishermen through his many books. He held 20 patents for fishing related innovations and inventions. We spoke quite a bit about the MicroWave system while preparing the original articles for RodMaker. His credentials in the field of fishing related innovations are unquestionable.

But rather than simply theorizing on what you think is a shortcoming of the Microwave system, why not buy a set and try them for yourself. That way you'll know for sure what they will or won't do.

............