I have noticed what might be considered a misconception of just how strong guides themselves and their thread-wraps actually need to be to mount them securely to any given blank. While certainly no one wants a guide or its thread-wrap to fail while battling that Big-Bad-Boy-trophy-of a-lifetime, it is very possible many builders go overboard in the strength department without even knowing it. Although being safe rather than sorry is prudent, the extra weight which detracts from the rods performance may be avoidable.
Before actually getting down to the strength of the guides or thread used to secure them to the blank, allow me to offer insight as to just how much “force” is applied to a guide (and the blank as well) and the subsequent thread-wraps from a fishing line under tension (as in “fish on!). Assuming proper static load testing was incorporated, a 7ft rod with 8 guides will distribute the load generated by a fish (or snag) over all 8 guides; granted the more load applied, the more the tip straightens-out and thus the guides near the tip carry less of the load; so, let’s say 6 guides are real load bearers under fish-fighting conditions. Let’s say the fish is 60lb; many would assume 60lb / 6 guides = 10lb per guide, right? Not necessarily so! What is the drag setting? The amount of force put on the guides will never exceed the drag setting! It is safe to say fishing for 60lb fish will often result in 20lb of reel drag pressure; 20lb / 6 guides = 3.5lb exerted at any one guide. Single foot guides will assume the entire load while each foot of a double-foot guides will only assume half = 1.75lb. Even if you can actually handle 50lbs of drag pressure, each guide will only experience 8.3lbs. Additionally, do not forget the line is not tied to the guide and trying to pull it directly off the blank.
Let’s look at the actual strength of the wrapping thread. My samples (no need to mention names as most must be quite similar) reflect size A breaking at 2.5-3lb and size D breaking at 5-6lb. Staying on the conservative side, let’s say size A breaks at 2lb and size D breaks at 4 lb. Each rotation of thread accumulatively contributes to the overall strength of the wrap. Using 114 TPI for size A and 78 TPI for size D thread, a .5in thread-wrap of size A will be 57 rotations and size D will be 46 rotations; therefore a .5in wide thread-wrap of size A thread will afford 57 X 2 = 114lb of holding force while size D will afford 46 X 4 = 184lb of holding force. That is quite excessive considering the amount of force applied to a guide previously described! Even when factoring-in the threads nearest the stem of the guide are exposed to a higher rate of force than, say, at the toe of the foot and subjected to repeated “shock-stretching” under load, it seems as though excessive strength has been the norm.
As for the guides themselves, it should be quite safe to say just about any guide can withstand the anticipated subjected forces described above. That is not to say I am an advocate of micro guides on an unlimited tuna rod! None the less, I think many underestimate the inherent strength of most guides. I did not include any hard guide facts/measurements for you number-insistive builders but an honest, open-minded examination of guides should reveal they are quite stout for the forces to which they are subjected.
Is a massive Fuji HB, or other “turbo” guides required to handle less than 10lbs of applied force? Are double over-wraps really necessary? Is hard handling, abuse and neglect the cause for over-building? I suppose most of my observations and questions are geared more from/to the heavier rod applications where weight does not impose as much of a penalty as with lighter builds where microscopic guides held in place with minimal thread-wraps and epoxy finish have become the norm. None the less, I am interested to learn from the veterans.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Guides are terribly overbuilt for the job they have to do - on the water. But sometimes additional strength is required to withstand the travel, storage, and some level of abuse by the fisherman.

It is rare that anybody tears a guide off a rod while fishing. In fact, most single foot guide security wraps were developed to stop fishermen from tearing guides out from under the wraps while putting a rod into or pulling a rod out of, boat rod boxes.

Threads rarely break or shear from fishing pressure. Guides sometime may twist or shift, but that's more an issue related to improper prep and wrapping by the rod builder.

...........

Tom,
Apparently you and I are on the same page concerning the strength of guides and thread. None the less, I am eager and anxious to learn from others, veterans or not, as well.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

It doesn't take much to attach a guide to the blank. The decision is how long do you want the guide to remain in place. After I decide on the spacing, the guides are attached with masking tape and I go out and test fish I move any guide as necessary and record the new spacing for final location, surprisingly enough I can fish a few times before the taping breaks down and can't fish any longer.

The guides can be attached with adhesive without a wrap and be functional but longevity is questionable.

The recommended attachment is thread wrapped and a thread finish.

With all the different variation of guides out there, different heights, weights, ring and frame material, colors I come to the conclusion that a guide when properly sized, dressed and installed will not contribute or compromise the integrity of the rod..

The only criteria for the guides is they should be sized and compatible with the blank for the intended use of the rod.

I see the guide as the unsung hero of the rod.

John,
Very well stated and acknowledged = thank you.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

It is my opinion that the combination of thread and epoxy is a lot like plywood in that the combination is much stronger than either component.

I have never had a wrap that I did fail. Once I had wraps that were getting cloudy and concluded that water was getting into the wrap. Another coat of epoxy focusing on the tunnels/ring interface solved the problem.

Thirty thread-wraps have the same strength as a 30-strand rope made with the same thread - plus the tensile strength of the epoxy. Weak thread wraps on guides are not a problem.

Thirty thread-wraps have the same strength as a 30-strand rope made with the same thread - plus the tensile strength of the epoxy. Weak thread wraps on guides are not a problem.

Phil, you're always good for a laugh ......... and for a quizzical look.

Phil, you can say that again.

Michael,
You are exactly correct; it is the combination of thread and the matrix (epoxy) that creates the “rigid” structure. The thread supplies virtually all the strength while the epoxy simply keeps the fibers aligned so they can perform their duty but adds virtually nothing to the overall strength. All this “nano-filled” epoxy is over-rated simply a sales gimmick; OK, “nano-filled” epoxy contributes 2% to the laminate’s strength while “regular “epoxy only contributes 1%. One way or the other, the fibers of a laminate afford its strength and the longer those fibers (especially with CF) the stronger the part will be and the less material required.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

I believe the strongest guide needs to be the tip top, and I really don't call it a guide. It is what is going to see the most torque and the most abuse being at the week frail end of the rod. The tip top is what gets broken off the most due to accidents. I have had people tell me that it just broke for no reason other than a fish

pulling on the whole rod but we all know that is rubbish and it actually got broken off by slamming it in a door, tailgate, sticking the end into the sealing or some other method of destruction. It will fail before any guide would fail because it would have to fail in order for that to happen. Guides do not see that much stress and

as stated earlier the way they are attached to the rod doesn't seam to be all that important, but we still use a locking wrap. My justification is that when the client jams it in a door, steps on it, rips it off loading it in a tube or some other method, that if it is not damaged completely it may hang by that little part of locking thread

and I can re-use it on the repair / next build.

I haven't done the ,ath, but vector algebra is required here to determine the forces applied to the guide, wraps, and blank. There is forward and backward friction, which works to move the guide on the blank, and then the guide feet can apply the load of the line perpendicular to the rod, with one foot or the other on two foot glides, feeling more stress due to the direction of line travel. The rod blank carries some of the force as well.

In my opinion, the assumptions are correct. There is way more thread wrap strength than required to hold the weight applied by fish on the of the line. However, the purpose of the thread wraps, though they have a ridiculous amount of strength, serves to form friction between the guide feet, and the rod blank, holding the guide stationary with respect to the rod blank

The epoxy resin , with the wrapping thread form a composite structure, stronger than either the epoxy, or thread alone. The epoxy saturates the thread, and stabilizes the structure, much the same way that corrugated cardboard, and wood glue can be used to make a small bridge, with strength enough to hold an automobile (project done in mechanical engineering class at the university I attended). The resultant thread/epoxy structure will firmly hold the guide, keeping it from spinning, or sliding on the blank.

I believe thread wrap schemes are based on what rod builders have seen done by others, and by aesthetics, rather than by physics. Me, I want a smooth, well made wrap, with just enough bubble free epoxy coating to protect, and hold the wraps, and make my build gorgeous. I know it will exceed the strength requirements of any load I apply to the rod. I hope that all made sense,

Tight lines and frisky fish

RJF