Luc siat Wrote:
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> I am especially interested on a balance rod from
> the sensibility point of view (from what I read).
> but yeah I also need to add 2 oz if want it to
> balance: I ll make a new butt and probably put
> some tungsten inside.


Adding 2 ounces of weight to the rod to "balance" it will reduce the sensitivity by a practical amount. Balance really has little to do with sensitivity.

...............

Adding 2 ounces (I have added 2 3/8 ounces) to the very butt of the rod will not reduce the sensitivity any appreciable amount. In fact, I have built 2 rods on a Rainshadow Immortal IMMC72MH blank. The first one I built, I added no weight to the butt of it. I fished that rod for about a year and a half before it broke during an unfortunate encounter with a 40 inch + muskie that hit my bait right at the boat. As I absolutely loved that rod, I built another one. I built an identical twin to the rod in every respect, with one major change. I added 2 3/8 oz inside the butt of the rod. The difference between those two rods was amazing.

The first rod was IMO, very tip heavy. It used to hurt my hand, wrist, and forearm if I used it for extended periods of time. And since I love flipping and pitching in shallow water cover for largemouth bass, at times I'd use it all day. Or at least as long as I could, before it started hurting so bad that I'd have to switch to a different presentation with a different rod, to give my arm a break. With the newest rod on that blank and its' added weight in the butt, I can use that rod all day and the ONLY reason I put it down, is if I choose to, not because I HAVE to.

I actually believe that with the way I have the rod and reel balanced. that the rod is more sensitive. I don't ever remember being able to feel the line sliding down the bark of a tree, or sliding down and feeling the Zebra mussels that coat the rocks in some of our reservoirs with that first rod. But I can feel these things now, because the rod basically floats in my hand.

This whole balanced rod and reel debate reminds me of the debates I participate in concerning fluorocarbon line versus nylon mono filament line. There are a lot of people that think fluorocarbon line offers no advantages over nylon mono filament line. Of course few of them have ever actually tried using fluorocarbon line.

Weight- adjustable butt caps detract very little from sensitivity.

Toms right about balance having little to do with sensitivity , any added weight will ALWAYS affect sensitivity in a negative way . The reason people think that weight helps with sensitivity is the way they percept the differences . If adding weight to a rod makes it feel more balanced and allows you to fish it more comfortably your perception will be that weight added sensitivity when in reality it made the rod inherently less sensitive but allowed the angler to perceive that the rod is more sensitive.

So , if adding weight allows the angler to be more comfortable fishing the rod then the angler will obviously be able to pick things up that they just couldn't with a rod that was painful to fish with and felt uncomfortable, but do not confuse being comfortable with (Weight add's sensitivity) because that goes against basic physics and is a fallacy .

Perhaps, one should look at the heavier balanced verses a lighter unbalanced rod in a different way.

Lets just lose the word - sensitivity.

Rather, lets just insert the words - catch more fish.

A rod is simply a tool to catch fish.

If a heavier balanced rod is more comfortable that lets one catch more fish - it seems that you have a Winner, Winner chicken dinner.

In the world wide scope of fishing - just set aside the term sensitivity and insert the word enjoyable.

Is a balanced but less sensitive rod more enjoyable to fish? For most folks, yes would be the answer.

At the end of the day as a rod builder, it is up to you to build a rod that works for you - if building for yourself, or your client if building for a client.

Simply build the rod that you and or your client will enjoy. Don't get hung up on terms. If the rod catches fish better than a former rod - who cares what the sensitivity is or any other particular rod parameter.

Enjoy the build, but more importantly - enjoy the use of the rod to do the job it was designed to do. i.e. catch more fish.

David Baylor Wrote:
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> Adding 2 ounces (I have added 2 3/8 ounces) to the
> very butt of the rod will not reduce the
> sensitivity any appreciable amount. In fact, I
> have built 2 rods on a Rainshadow Immortal
> IMMC72MH blank. The first one I built, I added no
> weight to the butt of it. I fished that rod for
> about a year and a half before it broke during an
> unfortunate encounter with a 40 inch + muskie that
> hit my bait right at the boat. As I absolutely
> loved that rod, I built another one. I built an
> identical twin to the rod in every respect, with
> one major change. I added 2 3/8 oz inside the butt
> of the rod. The difference between those two rods
> was amazing.
>
> The first rod was IMO, very tip heavy. It used to
> hurt my hand, wrist, and forearm if I used it for
> extended periods of time. And since I love
> flipping and pitching in shallow water cover for
> largemouth bass, at times I'd use it all day. Or
> at least as long as I could, before it started
> hurting so bad that I'd have to switch to a
> different presentation with a different rod, to
> give my arm a break. With the newest rod on that
> blank and its' added weight in the butt, I can use
> that rod all day and the ONLY reason I put it
> down, is if I choose to, not because I HAVE to.
>
> I actually believe that with the way I have the
> rod and reel balanced. that the rod is more
> sensitive. I don't ever remember being able to
> feel the line sliding down the bark of a tree, or
> sliding down and feeling the Zebra mussels that
> coat the rocks in some of our reservoirs with that
> first rod. But I can feel these things now,
> because the rod basically floats in my hand.
>
> This whole balanced rod and reel debate reminds me
> of the debates I participate in concerning
> fluorocarbon line versus nylon mono filament line.
> There are a lot of people that think fluorocarbon
> line offers no advantages over nylon mono filament
> line. Of course few of them have ever actually
> tried using fluorocarbon line.

It most certainly will reduce the sensitivity, which is a matter of stiffness to weight ratio. If you increase the weight without increasing the stiffness you have effectively and practically reduced the sensitivity of the rod. This isn't a matter of opinion - it is physical fact.

...............

The majority of American fishermen fish with live (or dead) bait. The sensitivity of the rod doesn't much interest bait fishermen, especially those who use circle hooks.

I never said that adding weight to a rod, regardless of where that weight is located, will not decrease its' sensitivity. I said that adding weight to the very butt of the rod, will not reduce the rod's sensitivity by any appreciable amount. I'm quite certain that everyone would agree that where the weight is located on the rod, determines how much it's going to affect the performance of the rod?

If the weight is in the guide train, it's going to affect the rod's ability to transmit vibrations more than if it is at the very butt of the rod. That too, is a physical fact.

In regards me possibly mistaking the ability to fish the rod more comfortably, with the rod being more sensitive. No the rod itself isn't more sensitive with added weight. But it is easier to detect vibrations with a rod that isn't tip heavy, versus one that is. And it has nothing to do with the comfort of fishing with a rod for an extended period of time. It has to do with the fact that I have to grip the rod and reel more tightly when it's tip heavy, versus when it is neutrally balanced, or in my case, balanced to be tip light. I can hold the rods I have balanced in the palm of an open hand if I wanted to. I couldn't do that with a tip heavy rod, as it would fall out of my hand. This adds to my ability to detect a bite, and detecting a bite isn't just about the sensitivity of the rod itself.

There is more to it than that.

My guess is that pretty much every bass fisherman has had times when they never felt a bite, rather they just sensed weight on the end of the line. The line just didn't start moving off to the side. There was no tell tale line jump, no your line just stopped sinking that would indicate a fish @#$%& in your bait. They just felt weight. It is a LOT easier to sense those type of pressure bites with a well balanced rod and reel that literally floats in your hand, versus a rod that is tip heavy, and you have to hold on to or it will fall out of your hand.

Concerning my diatribe about the comfort difference between a tip heavy rod versus a neutrally balanced, or tip light rod. That was a continued response to an earlier post stating "your rod is tip heavy, so what". That statement was shocking to me. To me it ranked right up there with worrying about the amount of weight a few extra wraps of thread is going to add to the weight of your guide train.

I really have to agree with David, a balanced rod is much more enjoyable to fish with than one which is overly tip heavy. I’m also not really convinced that adding weight to only the butt section would reduce sensitivity substantially. The stiffness to weight ratio of the blank in front of the hand has not changed one bit. As I see it, sensitivity is the ability to perceive a impulse traveling from the tip through the blank to the hand. Since nothing has changed from the tip to the hand, I don’t see how sensitivity would change that much if any by adding weight behind the hand. I would have to have the input of a mechanical engineer or a physicists to mathematically define why sensitively would be lost in this scenario. I’m neither of these, but I am curious.
Norm

Chris, no one adds weight to a rod in an attempt to increase sensitivity. It's a balance/comfort thing.

Norm, i think it has something to with mass..the more the mass of an object the more energy of vibration it absorbs or dampens..the increase in mass is carried by the whole rod.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2021 07:39PM by ben belote.

Lynn , isn't that exactly what my original post said ? I thought my words were pretty clear but maybe not . Adding weight to a rods butt to make it more comfortable to fish with since it now feels more balanced will give the angler the impression that it's more sensitive but again it's only an impression .



The anglers perception will be that there is a difference in sensitivity simply because the weight they purposely added just corrected the discomfort level that they felt in either their hand, arm shoulder or anywhere else . The angler now is much more comfortable fishing the rod because it's no longer tip heavy to them which increases comfort and they needed to add weight to the butt to achieve that. But anytime mass is added regardless of where along a rod it will always be detrimental to sensitivity even if an angler cannot tell that anything has changed . If an angler doesn't notice the added weight because the rod feels more balanced since the butt is heavier than more power to them and they should enjoy it . Anglers especially surfcasters have added weight to the butt of their rods for decades to achieve more comfort and some tackle companies have offered weighted butt caps to achieve that perfect balance going way back . It doesn't mean it's wrong to do .

I think Roger hit the nail on the head , just go fish and enjoy .

Any additional weight added to the rod, even at the butt, will reduce the sensitivity. As far as where the weight is added and what that would affectd and by how much, is part and parcel of inertia, rod reaction and recovery, etc., and yes, these particular things would be affected less by any additional weight being added closer and closer to the butt of the rod.

...........

Chris, you are correct, I apologize. Slow on the uptake at times!

Actually, Norman hit the nail on the head in his above post.

doesn,t a rod feel a lot more sensetive without the reel..put the reel on, it,s a much different feeling rod...

A much different feeling rod? Not really. Of course I was just touching the tip of it lightly against the floor of my house. (I have hardwood floors) but other than the added weight of the reel, it wasn't a much different feeling rod on the rod I just tried it on. In fact it wasn't much different feeling at all.

Here's the thing .....I know adding weight to a blank technically detracts from that blank's sensitivity. I have no problem admitting when I am wrong. And I was wrong earlier to say that the weight I added, made the rod more sensitive. What it did do, is it enabled me to utilize the sensitivity of the rod to a greater degree. And of that, I have zero doubts.