I'm interested in trying some Fuji T-KTSG single foot guides on a med-heavy saltwater rod. I'll be spiral wrapping the rod. I'm not concerned about the guide frames failing but I am a little worried that the guides may pull out of the wrap. I always use a Forhan lock with single foot guides but this single foot guide splits and has 2 "legs" that cradle the guide ring. I'm thinking I'll cut my thread long at the end of the wrap, then go in between and around each individual leg to lock. Maybe even wrap back down to the toe of the guide foot with a double wrap...Any thoughts, suggestions, experiences...

I personally think what you propose, while likely effective, is overkill. The Forhan locking wrap is very robust, in my opinion. I've never had a guide pull out iwth it. Last summer I had a rod with KT's and KB's get subjected to very high, abusive, loads along the blank and the guides bent but never moved.

Just do a Forhan wrap as described in the Library (https://www.rodbuilding.org/library/forhan.html) and it will be plenty strong. I did single foot guides for years without any type of locking wrap and never had any problems. Every time a guide got knocked out of the wrap, it was so damaged that the guide had to be replaced anyway and that is also using CP on the thread. I have also removed guides from broken rods to reuse them on a replacement rod, no locking wrap and they were still difficult to remove. If you are wrapping tight and using enough epoxy to cover the wrap entirely and get in the tunnels, you should have no problems.

the locking wrap originally was to prrevent guides from pulling out when snagged in rod lockers but proved to be great for when flippinng or type fishing where the rod is used to free snags and gets bumped a lot..

John,
I too have never experienced a guide pull-out, with or without a lock-wrap. None the less, I lock-wrap all my single-foot guides for the additional insurance, it shows the rod was made by a conscientious custom builder, and simply because I can.
What you propose for a guide lock wrap is basically how I lock wrap all my Fuji single foot guides. Start with a piece of thread approximately 24in long. About 20 rotations from the end of the main wrap, tape one end to the blank about 10in from the beginning and over the present portion of the main wrap, pass the other end between the guide legs, make one rotation and pass the end back between the legs in the opposite direction, make another rotation and pass the end between the legs as with the first pass, make another rotation and pass the end between the legs as with the second pass, pull tight while straightening the rotations, and tape that end next to the initial end. Finish wrapping the main thread over the lock thread and tie-off as usual. Untape the ends of the lock thread and, being careful not to break it, simultaneously give each end a half dozen tugs to make certain the rotations are tight. Pass both ends between the legs and simultaneously pull the threads enough to create enough of a gap in the main wrap threads so that when the lock threads are cut with an Exacto knife (under pulling tension), the tags will be concealed under the main wrap.
I tried to upload a photo (twice) but it is not appearing under “Guide Wraps”. Hence, I am unable to provide a direct link to the photo. Although I have not experienced a waiting period before, maybe Tom needs to approve photos before posting them. Try looking for my photo later under “Guide Wraps”, “Mark’s Guide Lock Wrap”, or email me and I will send it to you.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Mark, I've been having problems with photos I've uploaded not showing up, for about 2 years. Like you I figured they may show up later, but they never have. I've tried a few different ways of logging into the photo section. None have worked thus far. I just figured it had to do with my computer and my internet connection, so I never mentioned it before.

Jon,
First of all, I apologize for spelling you name incorrectly before.
I have uploaded a photo which is linked below.
David, after consulting Tom, he told me to downsize the photo file. The first photo attempt had the rod laying on a carpet background (many black and white threads to produce an overall gray) which could have made the photo file appear much larger. A simple piece of blue plastic over the carpet solved my problem.
[www.rodbuilding.org]

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

In my opinion, you are making an easy wrap difficult. Just do a regular locking wrap it will work very well, and will prevent pullouts. If you are worried about pullouts use KBs plus a locking wrap.
Norm

My method of guide lock wraps is “REGULAR” to me; the amount of time required to attempt to describe the method took 10X the amount of time than actually doing it (1-2 minutes max).But Norman is correct concerning the convoluted/ scalloped edges of the KB guide feet.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

[www.youtube.com]

Flex Coat Company
Professional Rod Building Supplies
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ben belote Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> the locking wrap originally was to prrevent guides
> from pulling out when snagged in rod lockers but
> proved to be great for when flippinng or type
> fishing where the rod is used to free snags and
> gets bumped a lot..

I've been fishing since the late 60's and with all kinds of rods, and I've never had a guide "pulled" out. So on all my custom rods I never use any form of locking wrap as I personally have never seen the need. Maybe I'm just lucky that way! Wish I were as lucky with the lottery.

like Jim was saying..once the epoxy pops loose at the mouth of the tunnels, water gets under the wraps with rust soon to follow..the forhan locking wrap secures the guide ring so that this does not happen..it,s not just a matter of the guides being pulled out..like i said earlier, i have flipping rods that i have brutalized trying to get free of snags and to this day not a spot of rust and it,s got to be because of the locking wraps that keep the ring end of the guide rock solid..

I second what Kent said , no locking wraps ever even with Fuji KT's and I never had a guide loosen or pull out on me .

I have replaced micro guides from the mid section of multiple commercially produced micro guide rods, which have pulled out from the wrap, not broken off, but pulled out. It does happen! The locking wrap is very easy to do, and does holds the guide securely in place. I think it adds a little extra insurance against guide pullout.
Norm

I have used micro guides exclusively for years with no problems. Maybe it is because of how I install them versus how others might install them. Mine don't fall out and they don't pull out. So I have no need for any extra so called locking wrap on any of my rods. If some think it helps then go for it. But I tend to think if the guides are installed correctly to begin with then the locking wrap is not needed. Line should not be pulling guides out in the middle of the blank especially when the line does not attach to the guide to pull on it in the direction it would have to be pulled on to come out. The pull at that point should be negligible if any at all so I have to really wonder about the quality of the installation to begin with.

I guess for my part I use the epoxy differently than some do which might account for my not having a problem. I have seen some epoxy applications that don't do what I do and I can see where guides can move around and possibly come out.

So I think rather than insisting on the sure fire end all solution is some idea of a locking wrap, is to address what is or is not a correct guide installation to begin with because honestly if guides are coming out from normal fishing tells me we have an installation problem which needs to be addressed first.

I must be doing something right or different if I am having 100% success rate with mirco guides without a so called locking wrap.

Kent, maybe you could detail your correct wrapping method for us. Thx.

The locking wrap is so easy and not time consuming-it takes no more than a few seconds to do it.

The most likely cause of micros pulling out is their getting snagged on something, but since they are so low to the blank that isn't as much a problem as it might seem. I did find one in my boat a couple years ago, no idea where it came from, but it had to have come from someone's rod. Not from mine, I'm happy to say. The second most likely scenario might be having your rod wrapped around your trolling motor shaft, like happened to me. While rare, it was nice to not have to rewrap a few guides. Just straighten them out and go fishing.

There won't be one pulled out from any rod built by me.

Kent’s contribution is very good and parallels my thinking that if a guide pulls-out, it is due to abuse or improper installation of the guide. Agreed, there is no way that ANY excessive line tension could possible pull a guide out! Additionally, I rarely use CP; why would I want CP filling my guide tunnels rather than much superior, stronger, application-specific epoxy! (That is sure to create a tangent tact). But, as submitted before and none the less, I still lock-wrap my single foot guides simply because I can and, who knows, it might prevent a guide from pull-out due to abuse.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Here is what Fuji has to say about mid rod forces and micro guide pullout when a rod is fully loaded. One of the reason for KB guides. They have documented micro guide pullout when a rod is fully loaded. So it does happen!
[anglersresource.net]
Norm

Not saying it does not happen, but your example squarely places full blame on the guide foot:

"Engineers discovered that in a “power bend”, stress moves to the mid-section of the rod and guide failure in this area was attributable to the small foot on most micro guides pulling out from under the wrap. KB Guides solve this problem with a broader, notched foot to better match rod diameters in this area of the blank and hold firm against pulling torque that develops when fighting trophy fish."

It claims problem solved with a change in the foot.

My perspective and experience is I have used the shortest foot micro guides for years without fail and without locking wraps.

So to me this throws it back into the situation of installation techniques as does the following statement from your posted example:

"KT features a low profile with deep pressed rings for unmatched strength and a special “wicking window” designed to pull epoxy through the frame below the ring, down and around the blank on the front side of the guide. This feature eliminates the need for “locking wraps” and offers a guide that is bonded front and back to the blank."

Bonded only providing the correct installation practices are observed.

And this is exactly what I said above...

"I guess for my part I use the epoxy differently than some do which might account for my not having a problem. I have seen some epoxy applications that don't do what I do and I can see where guides can move around and possibly come out."

I will continue to use the shortest foot micro guides I can find and continue to not bother with locking wraps until I see a need to go that route.

Guides on a rod are only on there as good as the installation efforts will allow.

If the blame were to be placed squarely on just the guide foot, then they should all be falling out. But since that is not the case, then guide foot is only part of the problem with installation issues being the rest of it as I see it.

So if I am NOT having a problem with guides being pulled out, then how can the blame be on the guide foot exclusively? In my opinion it can't. Installation variety is probably more to blame here than foot design. So in my opinion installation is everything.

ADDED-

I am going to add in something here that may not be a popular thing to say, but I believe it plays a role in all of this guide failure...

I have walked into MudHole showroom and examined closely custom rods made by famous well known rod builders, and on at least one of those rods on display in the showroom I have seen micro guides not installed correctly to the point the foot rotates and slides around under the threads and has a straight forward towards tip pathway to slide out unobstructed.

The reason is clear... some custom rod builders are so concerned about looks, and their rod being pretty and appealing to the eye, that they use thread that will not soak up epoxy or allow epoxy to flow well in it and around it and actually repels epoxy and blocks epoxy flow, and their application of epoxy is so scant that it does not flow into and around the thread wrap, and guide foot, and is kept strictly on the thread wrap itself and not allowed to flow over onto the blank around the stem of the guide on either side of the wrap giving the guide a straight pathway to slide out without obstruction.

I have seen this more than once, but most notably inside the Mudhole showroom on display rods that look absolutely stunningly perfectly beautiful. Pretty is more important than correct installation leading directly to failure. This is a fact I have seen with my own eyes and can only shake my head at in bewilderment. The rod builder was more concerned about how it looked than to use the materials in such a way that controls the guide as intended when under load.

Performance should be the priority over pretty in my opinion. Some choose to use locking wraps which are nothing more than an additional place for epoxy in front of the guide putting up an obstruction to a straight slide out. If one would not use a locking wrap, but uses the epoxy instead same as commercial rod companies do, there would be no need for a locking wrap. In my opinion it is not the so called locking wrap doing the locking. It is the epoxy and its placement doing the work of holding the guide in place.

I choose to install micro guides with a specific amount of thread tension for the wrap increasing towards the stem, and do extra wraps right at the stem on the foot side of the stem under higher tension, and not the other side adding length to that guide installation reducing rod sensitivity multiplied by number of guides installed being accumulative in effect. I allow epoxy to surround the stem but not excessively.

In order for one of my guides to be pulled out, 2 things would have to happen. 1) The thread & epoxy binder would have to give, break, or stretch right at the stem so the guide can lift up off the blank, and 2) ride over top of the epoxy obstructing its pathway to slide out. It can not happen with the way I install a guide. And it does not look horrible or unpleasing to the eye. It is not much different than how commercial rod companies do it for performance above all else.

So based on my own experiences and observations, if guides are indeed failing and pulling out of their thread wraps, then in my opinion there is an installation issue behind it. No other way for me to view it.

So called locking wraps are doing what I do without the extra thread wraps. Simple as that. The locking wrap is not necessary if other things are done to prevent guide failure. I've been doing this for decades and do not have a problem with guide failure and I use the shortest foot micro guides I can find because I believe the longer the foot the more accumulated steel resistance to my rod bending correctly. If I have 4 inches total of steel strapped to a blank, then that is steel resistance to oppose the bending of the rod. I want the guide foot to fit the rod bend, not want to lift off the blank because of the bend in the rod. And the longer the foot is, the more likely this could happen. So for me, shorter is better and more preferred, and I simply use the thread and epoxy to make sure my guides stay in place without the addition of any so called locking wraps extending the thread on the blank unnecessarily for each guide.

Everything I do is aimed for pure performance only. Pretty is irrelevant. I want a useful tool. Not a pretty tool that negates its usefulness to some degree- any degree- is unacceptable to me.

So I firmly believe if there are guide failures and guides being pulled out, especially more than once, then the installation of said guides has to be taken into account first and foremost.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2021 12:08PM by Kent Griffith.