Finally finished up all my stock of Gudebrod color preserver so I went with FlexCoat water based CP. Don't really care for it, first off it looks like elmers glue and it leaves the threads dull. They lose their brilliant color and end up being a dull or muted color from original. Is this common with the water based CP's or is there another brand ( preferably) a non water based product somewhere to be had.

Fishing is not a matter of life or death, it's much more important than that

once you apply the finish the brilliant coors come back..

No, the brilliant colors do not come back with epoxy. If you were using Gudebrod 811S, nothing I've found or tested is going to leave the threads that vibrant. U40 and FC CP are the worst when it comes to color retention and vibrancy. Chromaseal is the best from what I've tested, but it's still not as good as the 811S. I still have a personal lifetime supply of 811, I bought the remaining stock from Dick French in 2009 and use it sparingly, having to thin it every year because it thickens up over time.

yea, chromaseal is the best but i don,t like the epoxy creep i get with it on thread wraps..

For silk I'm having good results using Al's Color Rite. Color is dull until the epoxy or spar is applied then it pops back.

For nylon Chromaseal is sort of OK but nothing I've tried yet is great.

Ben, what is "epoxy creep?" thanks

epoxy creep to me occurs right after i apply epoxy to a wrap and begin rotating by hand and the epoxy on the edge of the wrap slowly moves to the center forming a very pronounced football..i have only had it occur when i used chromaseal CP..i have no idea why and at least one other person has mentioned it on this site...

I encountered the same creep with chromoseal. Drove me nuts chasing the problem. Went to flexcoat problem solved.

I have gotten better color with multiple coats of CP. I soak the wraps. Wick off all the excess with a coffee filter. Do this two or three times depending on the size of the wrap, most cases I do twice.

I use Michael's method with Flex Coat. One thing to keep in mind is that Billy does fabulous weaves, and for weaves like his, color fidelity is much more important than it is for most of us. I can get by with a little color shift, or dulling with Flex Coat; (and consider it minor if any) , maybe he cannot and for him Chromaseal is the closest to the holy grail. I've tried Chromaseal and didn't have problems, but didn't think it superior to Flex Coat. Use what works for you.

Footballs are not caused by the type of color preserver used but rather by using too much epoxy. Footballs can happened even when no color preserver is used with both NoCp and regular wrapping thread. Centrifugal forces generated during spinning causes the excess epoxy to pile up in the center of the wrap causing a football. Really noticeable on the smaller tip guides. It’s cured by using less epoxy and slowing down the rotation speed. After applying epoxy, I stop the rotation for a few minutes and remove any sags that may occur. I like to use slow RPM drying motors of 4 to 9 rpms, even though I apply the epoxy at much higher rpms.
Norm

I will agree with Norman on the RPM speeds. My first rod dryer was almost twice what i use now as far as rpm's . Couldn't understand why I was getting eggs, what you call footballs on almost all my guides. Switched to a much slower drying motor and lessened up the amount of flexcoat epoxy, problem solved.

Fishing is not a matter of life or death, it's much more important than that

As far as a little dulling in the vibrance of the thread color is not acceptable . Just because I'm not doing weaves I don't want to settle for dulled out colors. I choose the thread colors to match the components on a build. Reel seat's , colored winding checks and matching butt caps. Once it's all wrapped everything matches beautifully, now cp the thread's and presto magic, looks like the wrong thread colors were picked, turns a grade A job into a B job at best. If anyone has any of the older Gudebrod cp they would like to sell me please send me a message. Thanks John

Fishing is not a matter of life or death, it's much more important than that

If 811S was created by man, why cannot man recreate it?

811 was not perfect either - not 1 single CP is, they all have pros and cons, and each builder has to decide what is acceptable to them. 811 tended to have crystals which were visible on black thread, the more you applied the worse it was. And if you heat the epoxy up you ran the risk of burning the CP and those crystals would come from out of nowhere. HAving said that, knowing is half the battle, and understanding the cause of probems allows you to adjust your tehniques so that you can eliminate problems.

John, I don't know anyone that has any more left. I bought 150 ounces and sold most of it, then a few uears later I was contactign my friends and asking them if I could buy what I Sold them back. IF you've been around for a long time, 811S was the same exact product as Brilliance 2, but it was thinned more.

About 10 years ago Bill Cason made 2 CP's - one water based and one solvent. I didn't like either of them, but quit a few others did. He disappeared off the face of the Earth a couple of years after the product came out. I've tinkered adound with making CP, but having enough 811S as I do I didn't see the point in manufacturing something.

Norman Miller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Footballs are not caused by the type of color
> preserver used but rather by using too much epoxy.
> Footballs can happened even when no color
> preserver is used with both NoCp and regular
> wrapping thread. Centrifugal forces generated
> during spinning causes the excess epoxy to pile up
> in the center of the wrap causing a football.
> Really noticeable on the smaller tip guides.
> It’s cured by using less epoxy and slowing down
> the rotation speed. After applying epoxy, I stop
> the rotation for a few minutes and remove any sags
> that may occur. I like to use slow RPM drying
> motors of 4 to 9 rpms, even though I apply the
> epoxy at much higher rpms.
> Norm


I agree with all this. However I changed nothing other than the CP and problem was gone.

Was just reading a thread from this website from the past , I found it quite interesting . I should say I have used Flexcoat CP on a few rods when I wrapped with non CP Nylon thread and after applying it and letting it dry I knew something was wrong . Just had a dull look to it . I decided to rewrap a few guides and try again and this time the threads had great brilliance and superb color retention . I compared the thread color that I used Flexcoat CP on to thread right off the spool and could not tell any difference once the CP dried.


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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/20/2021 10:56PM by chris c nash.

It is what is and you may have to just live with it. I use the flex coat and know what to expect. Most of the time it is just fine.

Some would find it surprising to learn that about half of the CP's out there are all the same product, repackaged, each under a different brand name.

.........

Tom that I would believe with the water based cp's, but just like polyurethane the new water based poly's all dry with a cloudy finish. But not the oil based ones. Same goes for cp's, i'll take the old Gudebrod color preserver over the new water based ones any day of the week.

Fishing is not a matter of life or death, it's much more important than that

Wasn,t Gudebrrod CP just nitrocellulose lacquer which can still be puchased? you may have to thin it..