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Add Another Guide or Not?
Posted by: Tony Papazian (---)
Date: February 18, 2021 02:24PM

Below are links to 4 photo's of the dropshot rod I'm setting up. Do you think I need to add one more guide to running guide?

[www.rodbuilding.org]

[www.rodbuilding.org]

[www.rodbuilding.org]

[www.rodbuilding.org]

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Re: Add Another Guide or Not?
Posted by: Michael Sutheimer (---.wi.res.rr.com)
Date: February 18, 2021 02:47PM

I would without question. Typically I don't like me than about four inches between the tip and first guide. I would place that guide and then try two guides between that and the current third guide. I might even go two more guides depending how things look after adding one and making adjustments.

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Re: Add Another Guide or Not?
Posted by: Tom Kirkman (Moderator)
Date: February 18, 2021 03:00PM

Given that guides have gotten so much lighter in recent years, in your case I'd err on the side of too many rather than too few. Although, I don't think one more running guide will be too many. It may very well you just about right.

............

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Re: Add Another Guide or Not?
Posted by: Norman Miller (---)
Date: February 18, 2021 03:04PM

I also agree, at least one more guide. I assume it's a spinning rod. How many runners are you now using, and how long is the rod?
Norm

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Re: Add Another Guide or Not?
Posted by: Norman Miller (---)
Date: February 18, 2021 03:24PM

I checked your other posts. It appears to be 7'2" light drop shop blank with a KR 16H based reduction train. The KR GPS will probably recommend 5 runners, and in my opinion is at least one too few, maybe two. On such a rod I will normally use 9 to 10 guides total.

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Re: Add Another Guide or Not?
Posted by: Lance Schreckenbach (---.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net)
Date: February 18, 2021 03:58PM

Yes definitely. Maybe two. It looks like it would break the blank between the 2nd and 3rd running guide. I agree with Norman; on a blank like that 9 to 10 guides total +tip top.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2021 04:07PM by Lance Schreckenbach.

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Re: Add Another Guide or Not?
Posted by: chris c nash (---.atmc.net)
Date: February 18, 2021 04:34PM

I'm one who will not use an extra guide unless absolutely needed and I got to say what I see is you should go with two more not just one more. I actually set up running guides with a little more of an angle than what your images show . Not a lot more of an angle but a little more meaning move the object that the line is tied to a little closer without moving the rod.

Without knowing how stiff or soft a particular blank is placing guides bases on rod length isn't the best way to determine how many runners should be used. A blank that has a deep bend starting further back toward the butt will require more guides to harness it's full power .

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Re: Add Another Guide or Not?
Posted by: Norman Miller (---)
Date: February 18, 2021 04:38PM

Tony, if you need a tentative guide layout let me know.
Norm

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Re: Add Another Guide or Not?
Posted by: Michael Danek (---.alma.mi.frontiernet.net)
Date: February 18, 2021 05:00PM

I have never felt that any rod I've built with more rather than fewer guides than the "rule of thumb" has cost me anything but the price of the guides. While this rod appears to be a moderate action rod, which might not need as many guides as faster actions, I would still add probably two.

For my seven foot spin rods with KLH guides I go 16-8-5.5 two KB's, then 4 KT's. Or as I have said before, in the interest of obtaining the versatility to use higher line pound tests and bigger reels, 20-10-5.5, then the runners.

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Re: Add Another Guide or Not?
Posted by: David Baylor (---.res6.spectrum.com)
Date: February 18, 2021 06:29PM

I'd like to know how the rod is loaded? Is it in a horizontal position with a weight hanging from the tip top? It doesn't appear to be, but the pictures might be deceiving. Based on the pictures alone, I'd be going with at least 3 more guides. And that is if the rod isn't in a horizontal position with a weight hanging from the tip top to load the blank, If it is in a horizontal position and loaded at the tip top, I'd probably go with 2, but that really depends. Another than it appears to need more guides, it's hard to say.

The link is a photo of the line path of a drop shot rod I built on an NFC DS 6107 IM blank. It's just to show you what kind of line path I prefer. The rod is in a horizontal position and fully loaded per CCS standards. I have the weight to load the blank tied to the tip top, and a quarter ounce weight tied to the line running through the guides. I use yellow 50# braid for the line when I am doing static load checking because it's easier to see. Just to add, the running guides are 4.5 Fuji KTs.

[www.rodbuilding.org]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/2021 06:31PM by David Baylor.

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Re: Add Another Guide or Not?
Posted by: Tony Papazian (---)
Date: February 18, 2021 06:34PM

Norman Miller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I checked your other posts. It appears to be 7'2"
> light drop shop blank with a KR 16H based
> reduction train. The KR GPS will probably
> recommend 5 runners, and in my opinion is at least
> one too few, maybe two. On such a rod I will
> normally use 9 to 10 guides total.


That is correct Norm. After setting it up like the KR Guide Placement Software said & then performing the static test I figured I would need at least one more guide. Being new at this I figured posting the pictures would confirm my thoughts. Thanks.

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Re: Add Another Guide or Not?
Posted by: chris c nash (---.atmc.net)
Date: February 18, 2021 06:39PM

David's image is much more to the way I typically space my running guides including not too close to the tip . The angle of the line compared to the OP's is also sharper which I prefer as well but there's no way to tell if the blanks have similar bending profiles but nonetheless it's a great example of a well laid out rod imo.

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Re: Add Another Guide or Not?
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: February 18, 2021 06:43PM

Tony,
You asked and were told to add 1-3 guides.

Sure, you can if you wish.

But, if you wish - you can leave the guide setup exactly like it is currently pictured and it will fish just fine and catch plenty of fish.

I do think that there are some rod builders really do put too many guides on a rod. But, it is certainly a judgement call on your part and your part only - since it is your rod that you are building.

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Re: Add Another Guide or Not?
Posted by: Mark Talmo (---)
Date: February 18, 2021 07:55PM

Tony,
I agree with most that at least one and probably two more runners are required. Also note that from your photos, it appears the “line angle” produced by each guide is not consistent. Viewed from a different perspective, the line is not a consistent distance from the blank in between the guides. That is the number 1 thing to accomplish with static load testing which will evenly distribute the load applied to the blank. Hopefully, you are using the two-line static load test procedure.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!!

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Re: Add Another Guide or Not?
Posted by: Tony Papazian (---)
Date: February 19, 2021 01:55AM

Thanks everyone. I need to order some more guides & play around with it to what work best.

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Re: Add Another Guide or Not?
Posted by: David Baylor (---.res6.spectrum.com)
Date: February 20, 2021 12:47PM

Chris, I wanted to thank you for the compliment. Much appreciated.

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Re: Add Another Guide or Not?
Posted by: Lynn Behler (---.44.66.72.res-cmts.leh.ptd.net)
Date: February 20, 2021 07:56PM

I find myself agreeing with David once again. Mine look like his.

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Re: Add Another Guide or Not?
Posted by: roger wilson (---)
Date: February 20, 2021 09:28PM

Tony,
If I am building a rod on a blank that I have never built on before; I do the following as I lay out the guides.

I start from the tip and depress the tip of the rod against the floor or the ceiling. I carefully make note of the spot on the blank that bends first, and P put a piece of tape on that spot. I use 1/4 inch wide masking tape to mark the spot. Then, I will increase the pressure on the rod tip and make note of where the rod now is starting to bend and put a piece of tape on the spot. I continue doing this until I have the rod in a fully loaded condition with tape in place to mark the location of each of the guides.

Then, I do a summary check by starting from the tip, increasing pressure and visualize line flow from location to the next. If necessary, I will tweak, or add or subtract a guide location from where I started.

This is a very quick thing to do and it allows one to very quickly nail down the correct locations of guides. But, the key thing that I look for is that I have an equal distance from the blank for the line as the rod goes from no load to fully loaded. i.e. there should be no location where the line is spaced further from the rod, at maximum deflection than any other location between guides to give a spacing between the line and the rod blank.

I also do my very best to use the absolute minimum number of guides possible that will still give me the equa distant spacing from any line location to the rod blank. If I can eliminate a guide, I do so. If I have to add a guide or more, I will do so.

I also try to have my first or stripper guide as far from the reel seat as possible and still meet the afore mentioned criteria. i.e. any place that the blank does not bend, there is no reason to have a guide at that location.

So, the further from the reel seat that the first guide is placed; you will likely be obtaining the fewest number of guides to load a fully deflected rod blank.

Best wishes.

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Re: Add Another Guide or Not?
Posted by: Tony Papazian (---)
Date: February 21, 2021 01:47AM

Roger,

Thanks for the response. After reading everyones responses it looks like your method & the two line static load test will accomplish the same objective. I will give both a try but I'm assuming the two line static test will be easier & quicker to accomplish the task at hand as I can just slide the guides on with tubing or rubber bands then adjust them with the line going through the guides. I've been tying flies for ver thirty years but new to rod building & the thing that they both have in common is their are multiple ways of accomplishing the same task you just need to find your preferred method. I have to order some more guides once I'm able to find them as the only place that lists them is Mudhole but when I went to order some today it said "This item is temporarily unavailable for back order" so who knows when I'll be able to get some more guides to finish my rod.

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