Hello everyone, my name is Ernie and I am posting for the first time. I am not necessarily new to rod building, but after spending a little time reading some of these posts, I might as well be. I built most of my rods over the years according to the principles laid out in Dale Clemens' "Fiberglass Rod Making" that I likely purchased some forty years ago. I guess some things have changed!

I purchased an NFC SJ 703 7' blank a while back, and when I went into a catalog to search for guides, I began seeing all the info on NGC and KR Concept. Intrigued, I read as much as I could. Usually a good idea....usually. Now I've got formulas related to spool diameter in mm X 27 for the choker, then 19 to 20" in front of the spool face for the stripper...and another suggests that the choker guide placement is not carved in stone. Guide numbers are blank length plus 1 not including the tip top...unless that doesn't work out. There are some rules to guide sizes and spacing referenced, but someone says that the use of braided line trashes the old rules. Another states that the use of light mono or light braid changes the rules a lot, and the best way to assess is to tape and cast. Yet another suggests making your own rules. Someone says that one use a heavy braid to cast for performance assessment instead of light braid. Light braid likely will cast well regardless of how well guides are placed and spaced. I think I'm getting light headed.

So, I like the "concept" idea, and it seems to make sense. I'm just looking for a logical means to an end here. And lastly, it seems that everyone is in agreement here that test casting is always a good idea. My problem is that I don't know what to look out for. What are the evils of a less than ideal setup that manifest themselves while test casting. Then, assuming I can diagnose those ills, I still then would have to treat them for a resolution. At this point, I would have no idea how to do so. Are there any good videos or explanations out there with this topic in mind that someone could lead me to?

It used to be so simple. Find a blank, use a guide per foot of rod not including the tip top, place the stripper about 34 to 36 inches or so from the butt, size the stripper about half the diameter of the reel face, and taper the remaining guides to the end. Now.....

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

It's much much simpler than it sounds , the below is really self explanatory . With that particular NFC blank and 7 foot length you will more than likely be settling for one of the below groups of transition guides. I don't concern myself with the running guides at all the static test will tell me where those go not some software program that has no idea how stiff or soft the blank I'm building on is .


[anglersresource.net]

[anglersresource.net]

-Welcome to the revolution! When you started building, all casting rods all had their guides on the top side of the rod............no longer!

As I only build fly rods, I am no help to you, other than to say............keep asking questions on this site, you will excellent advice!

Ernie,
Pretty simple. Just take a pair of larger guides to calm down the loops off a spinning reel and then run small guides to the tip of the rod.

Generally speaking start with the first guide at 19 inches from the face of the reel and go from there. Easy peazy!

I also never concern myself with reel size. When I build a rod, I want the rod to work reasonably well with any reel that I put on the rod.

For a typical rod, I might use a different reels that may or may not be the same size over the life of a rod and I want the rod to function all right with each and every one of them.



Good luck

Ernie,
The number 1 thing to remember concerning rod building = ASK!
I anticipate your honesty and apparent willingness to learn will provide you with an abundant number of replies. While such may initially sound good, the vast differences of opinions may invite sensory-overload. In addition to your research, keep an open mind to varying opinions, digest what you learn, and develop your own approach to building a rod. Although easier said than done, do not become intimidated with the overwhelming number of blanks, seats, guides, epoxies, methods, formulas and concepts; they all work or they would not be here!
Blank selection is probably the most difficult obstacle to overcome. The sheer number can be intimidately overwhelming, especially concerning fly and bass offerings. With only 6 years experience, I may not the best to ask in this regard.
I strongly suggest you consider using Fuji components and their concepts; combined, they take a lot of guesswork out of rod building for the novice and veteran alike; I rarely use anything else. Collectively with Anglers Resource and their GPS guide train software, it is an act which is difficult to follow!
Rod building can be as simple or involved as one makes it to be = Custom Rod Building!

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Thank you all for your prompt and slightly diverse responses. I will take all into account and proceed. If I get into trouble I'll scream out for help!

About the second part of my inquiry....diagnosing trouble spots (if they exist) when testing your work. What things are you looking for, and how are you tweaking the set up to try to eliminate the trouble? I hear a lot about "line slap". What's the giveaway if it occurs? Is there some standard way of adjusting the guides for its elimination?

And this may sound like a really dumb question, but....when "taping" on the guides for that test run, is that meant in the literal sense? Is there a preferred tape that will securely bind the guides while you're out there whipping that rod around, or is it a general term for just keeping them as secure as possible? What is the best way to do this job, tape or otherwise?

Thanks again for your your input.

Ernie,

I just built an SJ703 a few weeks ago using the Fuji NGC by utilizing the calculator provided by Anglers Resource. If you have specific questions I would love to help you best I can and pay it forward.

2. "About the second part of my inquiry....diagnosing trouble spots (if they exist) when testing your work. What things are you looking for, and how are you tweaking the set up to try to eliminate the trouble? I hear a lot about "line slap". What's the giveaway if it occurs? Is there some standard way of adjusting the guides for its elimination?"

I like to test cast my rods and record the cast using a chest mounted go pro. When I cast I follow through to the point where the camera catches the line at an angle where it can see all the guides. I review the video to look for the potential of the line hitting the blank during the cast. Without a camera you will be able to see it with your eyes by watching your line. You should see it spooling off in the circular motion without irregularity. Really bad line slapping will be seen instantly.


3. "And this may sound like a really dumb question, but....when "taping" on the guides for that test run, is that meant in the literal sense? Is there a preferred tape that will securely bind the guides while you're out there whipping that rod around, or is it a general term for just keeping them as secure as possible? What is the best way to do this job, tape or otherwise?"

For the most part yes. Some prefer to use some of the rubber guide bands designed for micro guides. When I test cast the SJ703 two weeks ago I taped the first two guides tightly with thin cut masking tape. The rest I utilized the guide bands. I test cast using the lightest lure the blank was rated for, in this case I used 1/4 oz. Just make sure to have your tip top glued on. Don't tape that one.

I see you found the thread where I was questioning as well. Norman was able to give incredible advice and information. The spacing may appear different once on the blank but as long as you get the bullseye in the reduction train it will cast well. Try to follow the NGC calculator best you can and then tweak it to perfection from there.

I was very much the same as you, schooled on the Clemens methodology but then I was converted by the overwhelming flow of converts and practicality. It is truly a great system. So much so that I use it on all my own new rods. The only time I don’t use it is when I’m making a spinning rod for medium/ light-heavy drop fishing or for a young kid when rigidity is needed. Yes, taping up the guides means just that. I use ¼ or ½ masking tape.

Some use other methods but this works best for me. It makes moving a guide more difficult but they tend not to come lose during test casting. I conduct my cast with the sun on one side and a dark surface on the other. This gives the effect of illuminating the line against a contrasting dark background.

Again, other methods out there but this works for me. I look at the line as it unfurls off the reel and goes through the guides. The KR methods looks incredibly smooth compared to the traditional COF. Following the recipe eliminates most, but not all line slap. I make several casts, looking for anywhere the line touches the blank. Most of the time it is the stripper or the first reduction guide. I adjust the guide until the slap is eliminated and confirmed by several successful test casts.

A couple tips that might help: If using micro guides make sure that you always have line going through them when moving the rod around. If they fall off and don't have line through them you may never find them. Use the two line method for stress test-what is not obvious but important is that the temporarily attached guides don't load the rod, so they stay on better and you can move them without unloading the rod. It is MUCH easier than the one line method, which seems counterintuitive. But it's true. When using the software on the Anglersresource.net site make sure you are using the right one. There are two there, and they are not interchangeable. I use only KLH reduction guides on spin, so the right software is the KW software. If you are not using KLH tall spin guides, don't use the KW software.

Amazing help from everyone. Thank you so much.

I intend to use the rod for inshore Redfish, Trout and Snook. I have never built a split grip rod before, and I do like the way they look. But I'm much more concerned with function. Does a split grip design have any functional advantage/disadvantage for an inshore rod?

The software Michael is referring to is actually called KR. KW is a specific type of guide. As far as test casting, without trying to add confusion I will just say that I don't go to the extent that others have outlined. I just make a couple of perhaps half powered casts, and if the rod casts smoothly, I leave it at that. I use the guide tubing that Mud Hole sells for holding on my guides, and despite how tightly it holds the guides on, I have never had it hold the guide on tight enough to make a full power cast..

As far as line slap goes, I honestly don't know spinning guide trains well enough to offer anything but my opinion on why it occurs. Personally from what I've observed, it usually shows up with stiffer lines and is a result of larger sized guide rings coupled with shorter framed guides. If I am wrong about that I hope one of the other far more experienced members can set me straight.

As for myself, I will never build a spinning rod that doesn't use a KR concept guide train. They end up being lighter than any other type of guide train, and if you follow the reduction train layout to the T, you will never find yourself needing to move a guide. I would go as far as saying the choke guide will never need to be put anywhere other than where the software suggests it be placed as well. It's an incredible system that casts extremely well.

Ernie,

The modern guide trains are based on a simple idea, get the line to the blank in a straight line quickly and then use small low framed guides to take the line to the tip top. The small low frame guides significantly reduce the mass added to the most flexible part of the blank and allow the blank to transfer energy to the load more efficiently for casting. By shaving off some weight, you get the added benefit of adding a contact point or two to the guide train. By adding an extra contact point or two, you have a little better control of the line and can move just a wee bit more line when setting the hook by keeping the line path closer to the shape of the blank.

The biggest difference between NGC and KR concepts is the line they are intended to be used with. The NGC technique works quite well for any reasonable line that you might put on a reel. Putting 20 lb mono on a little UL reel is going to cause issues, even with a well conceived guide train. KR was developed for use wit the very light supple braided lines that are available today. That line will cast well through just about any guide train as you referenced above. KR just brings the line to the blank a bit faster and works well with smaller diameter and more limp lines.

The physical height of the butt guide on an NGC layout with Y frame guides is going to compare favorably with the V frames typically used in the Clemens style. Basically, NGC came with the taller Y frames that would let you drop a ring size and get a guide with the same height. That said, you can use any frame style in the NGC system, as it's the guide heights that are most important. Before the Fuji K series guides hit the market quite a few builders built NGC layouts using the higher frame match guides that were available at the time. The match guides let you achieve the same height as a Y guide with one ring size smaller.

When you look at the basic idea of getting the line to the blank in a straight line and taking it to the tip in another straight line, the modern guide trains are similar. The biggest difference is where you put the first small guide. When in doubt or using heavy mono line, NGC won't let you down. If you are keeping the line within the parameters mentioned on the KR calculator page, you can rest assured that system won't let you down.

I'm not a saltwater guy, so take my comments with a grain of salt here. As to the split grip, if your rod will be cast and placed in a holder, the gap between the grip pieces may cause issues when pulling the rod out of the holder. That would be the biggest disadvantage in my mind. Another may come up if you tuck the rod between your arm and ribs while fighting a fish as the changes in contour may provide pressure points. Aside from that the split grip saves a little money on grip material. It provides a great place to add decorative elements to a rod. I'm a big fan of placing the hook keeper just in front of the butt grip on a split grip rod to keep it out of the way and the line close to the blank when not in use. There is a bit of a weight savings benefit that translates into a lighter more responsive rod, especially when coupled with other weight saving measures. Split grips that are sized to reasonably fill the hands promote proper hand placement for two-handed casts, and provide material where it is needed. Aside from differences in grip shape, my split grip rods function just the same as my full grip rods, as I'm never grabbing the bare blank.

Ernie,
As anticipated, you have received a good number of replies; not only a good number but good in context as well. I have been so pleased with the KR Concept that I do not even bother to “test cast” anymore; it works that well. As for split grips, Joe offered good advice; I will add that while split grips do inherently reduce the overall rod weight, that additional weight behind the reel can serve to help “balance” the rod though, especially rods over 6.5ft. It is also very possible to spend more time constructing a split grip than a full length grip.
While Dale Clements offered very good, sound advice in general, as with most things of the past, things become “dated” with advancements in technology. I, too, considered Dale’s “Advanced Custom Rod Building” my Bible when starting-out, and while still employing lessons learned from that book, I realized keeping-up with modern advancements was required as well.

Mark Talmo
FISHING IS NOT AN ESCAPE FROM LIFE BUT RATHER A DEEPER IMMERSION INTO IT!!! BUILDING YOUR OWN SIMPLY ENHANCES THE EXPERIENCE.

Thanks, David, sorry about the wrong terminology. Like Mark, I have so much confidence in my Fuji builds that I don't test cast either. They all work fine.

Ernie, I build a lot of inshore rods for specks, reds, and whatever else may be around. For all of my inshore and freshwater rods I exclusively use the KR guide concept with split grips. In my opinion the KR concept is the best I have ever used, and is quite easy to set up. Dale Clemen’s books “Fiberglass Rod Making” and “Advanced custom rod building” outlined how to set up a cone of flight (COF) guide train where the guides got gradually smaller and thus gradually choked the line coils out to the tip top. The Fuji NGC was introduced about 20 years after these books were first published, and almost immediately made the COF obsolete. The NGC was designed for monofilament line and was based on getting the line to low profile running guides quicker by using high profile reduction guides. The Fuji Y guide (new guide) was introduced at that time and for a given ring size they had a higher frame than the commonly used V guides. The NGC also introduced the concept of choke point, which was based on the upsweep angle of the reel and defined a point where a straight line from the reel spindle intersected the rod blank. However, different reels have different upsweeps, and some had no upsweep, thus giving different choke points. Tom Kirkman came up with the 27X formula for determining an average choke point for all reels independent of their upsweeps or even lack of upsweep. It should be emphasized this is an “average” point and thus is not ‘locked in stone’ and can certainly be moved in or out to accommodate guide spacing and numbers, without affecting performance. Another dozen or so years later, the Fuji KR concept came into existence, and was designed for use with braided line and micro sized running guides. Because of the forgiving characteristics of braided line, the KR concept allowed for the line to be even more quickly choked by using just three reduction guides of the proper height vs the four often used with the NGC. These reduction guides are higher for a given ring size than the Y guides, were specifically grouped based upon their heights. The KR GPS does a very good job for most rod lengths, but I usually add at least one more running guide then recommended. It calculates a choke point by multiplying the distance from the stripper guide to the tip top by about 0.42 and then placing the choke guide at that distance in front of the stripper. As you can see the Reduction train will get longer with longer rods and shorter with shorter rods, thus it is a moveable point not a fixed point, so it can be moved in or out to accommodate guide spacing and numbers based on static testing. You can check this by putting in longer or shorter handle lengths or longer or shorter rod blanks into the KR GPS, leaving reel and line size the same. In my opinion the KR GPS does not do a good job with very short rods or vey long rods, but for most rods it does an excellent job.
When test casting, you want smooth and quiet. I’m extremely hard of hearing, but I can hear and feel line slap. This is usually caused by the stripper guide being the wrong size or too close or too far away. Most people who fish instantly know when a rod casts well.
As far as split grips are concerned, I have not come across a disadvantage. They basically look good, save weight, are easily reamed to get a proper fit, and allow you to easily make the grip exactly the length you want.
Norm

Ernie, details help in getting the best answer. You have said it will be an inshore rod for redfish, trout, and snook. You never mentioned the reel and that matters, especially spinning vs casting. You never mentioned the line. Big difference between 15# mono and 10# braid. Also need to know what knots guide train will have to pass, if any. Most that fish braid (and many that fish mono) will have a knot inside the guide train. The area/waters you fish would be worth knowing to aid us in giving the best advice.

Just have to say, I have a blank sold to me by NFC as a SJ 703-1 Xray. To me it is very light in power, something I'd fish 6-8# test on. Makes me wonder if we have the same blank or if your snook are different.

Get back to us with that info. If fishing braid no more than 15#, and you can tie the FG knot, and the reel is 3000 or smaller.....Likely you will end up with KLH20, KLH10, KM5.5, one or two KB 4.5, and 3 to 4 KT 4.5. If you are using a uni-knot I'd make the KB/KT guides a size 5. If fishing mono then you probably want to go a different route.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Russ,

You are correct about the blank being light. North Fork told me that the SJ 703 was a suitable blank for inshore snook and redfish. I'll build it.

I live in SW Florida....Cape Coral. I have more reels still in boxes than I will ever think of using. But I regularly fish a Penn 430SS that I have had since I was in my late teens to early twenties. I cannot remember. :-) I'm about to be 66! But I certainly don't want to be limited to the Penn. I might decide to fish a smaller reel one day. I usually fish 12# braid.

And as for light, I once caught 5 redfish within two hours while wading with a 9 foot crappie rod. One of them was 36 inches long. The 703 will be fine. I can tie any knot, but I make it a habit of not bringing knots through the guides if I can help it. I never see any need to do so.

So.....Do I just go to the KR guide site on Angler's Resource and punch in the numbers? And to all who have responded....thanks a million. Priceless information for someone like me.

If you need more specific help with the guide layout let us know. I have built several SJ703 as KR spin rods. They are light powered, but may work fine for you. In my opinion, their listed lure weight is overrated.
Norm

I definitely think you guys are correct about the power rating of the SJ 703. In fact, I actually questioned the company about whether or not they had sent me the right blank! Because I liked the blank, I kept it, but in time ordered another that is supposed to have a much more powerful rating, what they are calling an MB 765-1 (X-ray NEO). Even THAT blank bears little resemblance to its description.

I would have preferred to order my parts all at once, but I'm beginning to think that I will order my handle and reel seat, and follow up with whatever I think I will need from there. If anyone thinks I need not do that, I'd like to hear from you. I just don't want to order a bunch of parts that in the end I will never use. I don't build rods for a living. :-)

Between anglers resource and Norman Miller you won't go wrong. Treat yourself to a 2500 stradic Ci4 to go with that sj703 and load it 10# youzuri or j-braid. I think you will like it.

FWIW the SJ732 is just a bit more powerful than the SJ703 despite what NFC says. The SJ736 is what I'd call a 8-15 maybe 17# inshore. The MB736 isn't quite as powerful. The MB7109 is what I'd want for 20#+ snook up tight in the mangroves. I have yet to try their P703/704 popping blanks but they are on my short list.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.