I know similar topics have been discussed and for that I apologize. I'm building multiple 78" and 84" light inshore rods. Primary use will be for sea trout and small to slot drum.

I will be fishing size 2000 and 3000 reels and running mostly 6 to 12 lbs mono.

I have completely over thought the whole reduction train process and I'm about to pull my hair out. I have used the gps software for KR guides and I'm comfortable with those layouts using the KL-H guides.

I have quite a few Fuji LY guides and would like to make a reduction train with those.

Do you guys have any proven trains with the fuji Y guides that include the belly guide as well. I'm looking for distance from axle top and ring size recommendations.

I also read that the mid point of the rod should represent the choke point. Seams sort of logical but completely unscientific. Maybe it's just a good starting point.

So far I'm really enjoying this new hobby but the guide size and placement is frustrating.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Mid-point is NOT choke point. Have you used the New Guide Concept GPS? [anglersresource.net] Choose the "Y" guide. "LY" is the new name since it is now an NGC guide with Deep Pressed Rings.

Thanks Jim. The GPS model for a Diawa BG3000 recommends an 8 guide reduction train with a choke point at 31.3 inches. That seems like a lot of guides crammed into a short distance. What am I missing. This recommendation is using my measurements. However, even selecting a reel model that's already listed a similar train suggestion is given.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2021 04:25PM by Robert m Tyndall.

These are the GPS recommendations.


Angle: 84.54
Choke: 31.30 in
Guide Reduction Train:
Y
Guide Size Position
G1: 30 too close
G2: 25 10.28 in
G3: 20 13.90 in
G4: 16 17.20 in
G5: 12 19.92 in
G6: 10 22.36 in
G7: 8 24.06 in
G8: 7 25.28 in
G9: 6 27.56 in

There would never be an 8 guide reduction train, 4 yes 8 never. That’s 8 guides total, 4 reduction guides and 4 runners. Back when I use to do NGC layouts, and that was a while ago, for a 7’ rod and a 3000 reel I would normally use a reduction train consisting on Y25 (or Y30), Y16, Y10, and Y8L, followed by L6 running guides. I would place the stripper about 20” to 21” in front of the reel spool, and the choke guide about 26” to 28” in front of the stripper. Then progressively place the other reduction guides between the stripper and choke guides, and progressively place the runners between the tip top and the choke guide. I would static test and then test cast to fine tune. If needed the choke guide position can be moved in or out to get a nice progressive guide layout. The stripper can also be moved in or out a little for fine tuning. Guide train layouts are much more flexible and forgiving than most people believe. Don’t hesitate to experiment with the guide layout to see what works best for you. The GPS just tries to give you a starting point, don’t be afraid to modify it to your liking. I prefer the KR concept, but the NGC does work very well, especially with mono, and even more so if you have a bunch of NGC guides that need to be used. Hope this helps.
Norm
Just saw your screen shot. Have not really used the NGC GPS, always seemed to get weird results, to but I think it’s giving you the position for possible strippers, not the positions for all the reduction guides.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2021 05:33PM by Norman Miller.

Thanks Norman. I agree that a reduction should consist of 3 to 4 guides, then belly, then runners. That makes sense to me. Why would the GPS give me this feedback? The KR software seems spot on logically but the GPS seems way off to me.

Like I said, I don’t use the NGC GPS. It came out, or I found it, about the time I switched over to the KR concept, and whenever I did try to use it I got weird results I couldn’t figure out, so I just ignored it. The KR GPS gives a really good starting point, and have figured out how the program works, for the most part. This has allowed me to recognize it strengths and weaknesses , and do some modifications, especially with shorter rods. Like you, I also have some Y guides left over that I basically use for repairs, I rarely use the NGC these days
Norm

Robert, try this link. Ask questions afterwards if needed. I doubt you will need to.

[www.rodbuilding.org]

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

When you mention Belly guides, it should be noted that it was a guide design unique to the Fuji KR concept, which used micro running guides. Before the KR guides, micro guides had very small and thin feet, and when used in the midsection (belly) of a rod they were subject to pullout forces when the rod was fully loaded. One of the reasons the locking wrap came into existence. To circumvent this problem the KB (belly) guide was designed by Fuji with a longer and wider foot to help counteract these forces. Since the NGC traditionally used larger runners down to a size 6, the NGC running guides had a large enough foot to resist the pull out forces generated from a loaded rod, and thus the term belly guide was not used.
Norm

Norman Miller Wrote:

> To circumvent
> this problem the KB (belly) guide was designed by
> Fuji with a longer and wider foot to help
> counteract these forces.


One of the "improvements" I'd like to see would not be to increase the width and length, but to change the shape of the foot. Rather than smooth edges with zero grip ability, a rounded sawtoothed shaped edge would greatly increase thread and epoxy's ability to hold the guides in place. I don't use Forhan locking method, and I still use the shortest foot I can get and I've never had one pull out. Bigger may not always be better, but the correct shape might help!

So rather than use guides like this with straight sides to the foot...



I buy them with feet shaped more like this:

Robert,

The GPS software is not a guide placement software in the same sense as the KR calculator for setting ups the whole guide train.

What the GPS does is sets up a line that points along the shaft of the reel and finds the location from the end of the spool shaft where the top of each guide intersects that line. It is up to you to determine which guides will work in your reduction train. Using the rule of thumb that the butt guide should be between 18"-22" from the end of the shaft, you can pick the butt guide. Now you can chose 2, 3, or possibly 4 more guides that will give you a nice progressive spacing down to you choke point. That said, once you start playing with a number of different reel sizes, you'll find some common size combinations that start popping up regularly.

If you have the Y guides on hand, in general, going up one ring size from the KR guide will give you a guide that has a very similar height. You can take advantage of the rapid reduction by using guides with the same height. You don't have to use an entirely different placement technique just because the frame shape is different. Before the KR concept was put together, it wasn't uncommon to use tall frame match guides (similar height for each ring size to the KR) with the NGC technique. It's the heights of the guides that matter, however, with really light braid, it really doesn't matter what you do. You could pass that stuff through a casting rod guide train just fine for the most part.

The KR concept has a set of guides associated with it, but just as you could use V, Y, and match frame guides with the appropriate heights with NGC, you can use V, Y, match, or KR frames with the appropriate heights with KR. It's an evolution of NGC that is meant to reduce guide train weight when working with light, limber lines.

Match guides do make a suitable substitute for KL-H guides. The M guides have a high frame and small ring design. The KL-H guides are like a modern day souped up tangle free version of the old M guides, which have been around for a long time.
I have had to replace a bunch of small micro guides that have pulled out on some of the commercially made micro guide rods. These pullouts were located in the midsection of those rods. Some people don’t think it’s a problem but I have seen it first hand. Doesn’t happen with every rod but it certainly does happen. I do like and use the locking wrap, I think it does make a difference on some of the micro guides out there. It’s easy to do, and does act as insurance. The guides you use and how you wrap them are certainly personal choices. The KB/KT guides are very strong and well designed. The KB guides not only have a foot that wider and longer it is also notched.
Norm

GPS gives results for ALL guide sizes and their position relative to the spool axle tip. It is UP TO YOU to choose the 3 guides (maybe 4) that will work best (based on size, height and spacing) as a reduction train group to the choke point. A word on reel measurement: If the drop between the back of the reel and the tip of the spool axle is more than 10mm....you've done something wrong. We have never measured a reel with more than 10mm of drop. And...GPS deals only with reduction trains. RUNNING GUIDES are not addressed in any way. Use Static Loading for running guides.

Is there a list of tried and true reel measurements for the GPS software?
The reels I want to use aren't listed and I'd love to be able to double check my measurements.

For the Diawa BG 3000 I got
76mm to axle
85mm to bottom
122mm across the seat



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/02/2021 01:48PM by Robert m Tyndall.

Robert, I think your measurements are a little off, as it seems to recommend a Y frame 16 at 22" with a choke point at 40" (or something like a 16, 8 or 16, 10, 6 reduction train for Y frames). That seems a bit off, as that is even more aggressive than the KR guide train. For a typical 3000 sized reel, I would expect with NGC a 25, 16, 10, reduction train with Y frames and a choker at around 48"-50" from the spool shaft. I suspect the issue is most likely your measurement to the bottom. Looking at the BG, it seems a line along the spool shaft would exit close to the middle of the flat part at the bottom of the reel. Try placing a straight edge next to the spool shaft and taking a measurement where it exits the bottom of the reel. It's the line that represents the spool shaft that the software is trying to calculate. Using those 3 measurements gives the required info to find the 2 points required to define the line.