All,

I'm am a relatively new rod builder and first time poster. I fish Midwest Finesse style for bass and a few basics of the style are short rods (6 feet or less), light lines (10lb or less) and minimal action retrieves. A typical rig would consist of a 5'10" medium light power rod with a medium size freshwater spinning reel with 10lb braid to a 6lb fluoro leader.

My dilemma is as follows:
I'm planning to build the aforementioned rod and use it with my 1965 vintage Shakespeare 2062 spinning reel that has a spool diameter of 2 1/8 inches (54mm). Switching to metric now if I take 54mm and multiply it by 27 as suggested I get a choker guide placement of 1458mm (57.5 inches). Given the reel placement, that puts the choker about 2 inches short of the tip top which I suspect is not optimal.

Given that I am going to build this rod and use this reel, do you have any thoughts or suggestions? Can I get some but not all of the new guide concept benefits by making any particular adjustments?

As a new builder, I really enjoy this forum and look forward to learning from all of you! Thanks!

The distance beyond the choker is of no concern. It's the distance between the choker and the reel spool that is critical.

You have two options, shorten the spacing just a tad so that the choker is about 3.5 to 4 inches from the tiptop. Or, push out and let the tiptop be the choker. Try it both ways. Cast it. See how it does.

..........

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The distance beyond the choker is of no concern.
> It's the distance between the choker and the reel
> spool that is critical.
>
> You have two options, shorten the spacing just a
> tad so that the choker is about 3.5 to 4 inches
> from the tiptop. Or, push out and let the tiptop
> be the choker. Try it both ways. Cast it. See how
> it does.
>
> ..........
Thanks for your help Tom! Trying it makes a lot of sense and as a rank beginner, it hadn't really occurred to me. I was trying to figure it out without breaking any of the "rules" such as "The number of guides equals the number of feet plus one, plus a tip top. And a maximum of "4 reduction guides even on the heaviest rods" Sometimes I can be too literal for my own good.

Brett

p.s. If I make the tip top the choker, did I just reinvent the "cone of flight"? :)

No, it won't be a cone of flight by any means. Your NGC guides will no doubt be higher and smaller in diameter. Line control should be much better.

Too many people worry about making an NGC rod look a certain way. The choke guide needs to be property spaced from the reel spool. Anything beyond the choke guide, be it 1 inch or 100 inches, is simply additional rod blank to be supported by as many running guides as needed.

................

Tom Kirkman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> No, it won't be a cone of flight by any means.
> Your NGC guides will no doubt be higher and
> smaller in diameter. Line control should be much
> better.
>
> Too many people worry about making an NGC rod look
> a certain way. The choke guide needs to be
> property spaced from the reel spool. Anything
> beyond the choke guide, be it 1 inch or 100
> inches, is simply additional rod blank to be
> supported by as many running guides as needed.
>
> ................
Tom, Since I'm going to school, would you recommend using 4 reduction guides? Or more? (4 including the butt guide).

Thanks again!

Using braid or light mono (even on an old style reel) changes the rules a lot. It allows for much more flexibility in setting up a guide train and allows for the choke point to be placed much closer to the reel. I have always considered the choke point as more of a suggestion rather than an order. I would certainly use a KR concept for setting up your rod. For the reduction train I would use KL20H, KL10H, and KL5.5M followed by 2 KB and 2 KT guides size 5 or 4.5. For your specific rod, I would place the stripper about 20" in front of the spool and choke guide about 20 to 21" in front of the stripper. I would place the other two reduction guides progressively between the stripper and choke, and the remaining runners progressively between the choke and top top. As mentioned I would use four runners, which includes the choke guide, for a grand total of seven guides. Static test to fine tune, and then test cast. This should give a nice progressively spaced guide train that will cast great. As a tentative guide spacing layout I would start with the following, with all measurements from the tip top in centimeters. 10, 21, 33.5, 47.5 (choke), 63.5, 81.5, and 101.5 (stripper). I like using the metric system because you don't have to deal with fractions of an inch, much easier to use.
Norm

Brett, do yourself a big favor and forget the rules and make your own rules..braided line trashes the old rules and lets you make your own..ie, in my hand right now is a 50" light power glass spin rod that can bow and arrow cast a 1/4 ounce practtice lure up to 60'..the #8BYAG is 13" from the spool and is followed by seven #5BLAGs plus tip top..i use 10# power pro on a Shimano 1000 for fishing brushy farm ponds from the bank..braided line makes all this possible..it will not work as well with any of the monos unless i go down to 2 or 4# test but that,s too light for bass under these conditions..make your own rules, it,s more fun..lol.

Thanks Ben, I don't always play by the rules but I do like to understand them before going my own way.

Brett

Norman Miller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Using braid or light mono (even on an old style
> reel) changes the rules a lot. It allows for much
> more flexibility in setting up a guide train and
> allows for the choke point to be placed much
> closer to the reel.
...
>I like using the
> metric system because you don't have to deal with
> fractions of an inch, much easier to use.
> Norm

Thanks Norman! That all sounds pretty reasonable to me but I thought braid was prevalent when concept guides were developed? I'm down with the Metric;)

Brett

Brett, braid was fairly prevalent when the NGC was developed, but the NGC was a technique designed for all types of lines. Through experimentation and folks attempting to push the limits of what is possible, people realized that when working with light braid that the limits could be pushed significantly further. Fuji developed the KR system which is intended to work on rods using light mono and light braid. Additionally Dough Hannon developed the Microwave guide system which has been taken on by American Tackle. Both systems put the choke guide near 40" and work with a pretty broad range of line types and diameters. With the Microwave, the choker goes at 39 7/8" from the end of the spool shaft and KR will slide it around a bit based on the length of the rod.

In any case, I would suggest putting your choker guide at around 40" from the spool, and if you are using Y-frame concept style guides using a 25mm and 12mm guide for the reduction guides, a 5mm or 6mm guide at the choker location and 6s, 5s, or 4s to the tip from there. I fish a little 5'8" ML extra fast action rod built on an old Cabelas HML blank that is right in line with what you are looking for. It's paired with a 1500 sized Shimano Sahara, and is a great little rod for Midwest Finesse type presentations. I used Y frames in 20mm and 10mm followed by a 6mm and either 3mm or 4mm to the tip. I generally use a limp 6lb mono on it.

Also, do me a favor and shoot me an email by clicking on my name above. I would like to rejoin the Midwest Finesse email group, but seem to have lost Ned's email address to ask to be put back on the list.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/01/2021 11:55AM by Joe Vanfossen.

The NGC was introduced somewhere around 1995 or so, and the use of braid was not nearly as prevalent as it is today. Braid will help any guide train to cast better, I learned this the very first time I used braid. The KR concept was introduced some where around 2012 specifically for using braid with smaller guides, and it is just a modern modification of the NGC. It uses high framed small ringed reduction guides to rapidly choke the spiraling line coming from the reel to smoothly pass through low profile running guides. Because of smaller size of the guides used the overall guide train is lighter, especially in the tip section, and this makes the the rod more responsive, and in my opinion better performing. Of course you can use a NGC with braid, I just feel you get better performance with the KR concept. I think a lot of other people feel the same way. But then again it’s a matter of choice, do what you like the best. When I talk about high frame small ring I should say that for a given ring size a KR guide will have a higher frame. For example, a KL20H is approximately the same height as a 25 Y or a 30 V.
Norm

Joe Vanfossen Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> light mono and light braid. Additionally Dough
> Hannon developed the Microwave guide system which
> has been taken on by American Tackle. Both
> systems put the choke guide near 40" and work with
> a pretty broad range of line types and diameters.
> With the Microwave, the choker goes at 39 7/8"
> from the end of the spool shaft and KR will slide
> it around a bit based on the length of the rod.
>
My first build was a 5'8" med-light fiberglass and I put Microwave Airs on it basically where the package said to. It significantly outcasts any of my conventional rods which is what got me really interested in guide placement in the first place. More distance but more importantly it seems more accurate at any distance and easier to keep down out of the wind. With Midwest finesse, location is everything.

Thanks!
Brett

Norman Miller Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The NGC was introduced somewhere around 1995 or
> so, and the use of braid was not nearly as
> prevalent as it is today. Braid will help any
> guide train to cast better, I learned this the
> very first time I used braid. The KR concept was
> introduced some where around 2012 specifically for
> using braid with smaller guides, and it is just a
> modern modification of the NGC. It uses high
> framed small ringed reduction guides to rapidly
> choke the spiraling line coming from the reel to
> smoothly pass through low profile running guides.
> Because of smaller size of the guides used the
> overall guide train is lighter, especially in the
> tip section, and this makes the the rod more
> responsive, and in my opinion better performing.
> Of course you can use a NGC with braid, I just
> feel you get better performance with the KR
> concept. I think a lot of other people feel the
> same way. But then again it’s a matter of
> choice, do what you like the best. When I talk
> about high frame small ring I should say that for
> a given ring size a KR guide will have a higher
> frame. For example, a KL20H is approximately the
> same height as a 25 Y or a 30 V.
> Norm

Thanks Norm! That helps me understand the history and gives a lot of context to the comments.

The learning is the best part!

Brett

ben belote Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Brett, do yourself a big favor and forget the
> rules and make your own rules..braided line
> trashes the old rules and lets you make your
> own..ie, in my hand right now is a 50" light power
> glass spin rod that can bow and arrow cast a 1/4
> ounce practtice lure up to 60'..the #8BYAG is 13"
> from the spool and is followed by seven #5BLAGs
> plus tip top..i use 10# power pro on a Shimano
> 1000 for fishing brushy farm ponds from the
> bank..braided line makes all this possible..it
> will not work as well with any of the monos unless
> i go down to 2 or 4# test but that,s too light for
> bass under these conditions..make your own rules,
> it,s more fun..lol.


I would just like to add that this guide train is much different from the typical spinning layout because it is my first "successful" attempt at eliminating the tall reduction guides in the butt area of a spinning rod..Why? it reduces the guide train weight by about 70% and increases rod sensetivity..rod hook setting power is transfered better through short stiff legged guides than long flexing guides..more solid hook ups and at longer distances..and this guide layout is a perfet fit for my Curado-B..lol..i have yet to try any heavier braids but think they should work as well,but may have to use a #10YAG or larger if there is any line slap..as before, this is only used for braided line...

Take all of the advice here and add 14 inches to the blank length and you'll have a great rod. Yes , braid is very forgiving, but why so short on the blank? Shorter casts, less effective hook sets, less length to absorb big fish thrusts. Unless constrained by brush or other factors, a longer rod will work a lot better. In my opinion.

Michael Danek Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Take all of the advice here and add 14 inches to
> the blank length and you'll have a great rod. Yes
> , braid is very forgiving, but why so short on the
> blank? Shorter casts, less effective hook sets,
> less length to absorb big fish thrusts. Unless
> constrained by brush or other factors, a longer
> rod will work a lot better. In my opinion.

Michael, thank your advice. but respectfully, I don't want a longer blank. The style, location, bait, wind, and my own personal preference come to play. I fish a style in which overworking the bait is an anathema. A short rod helps me remember that I don't want to jerk the bait two feet off the bottom with a twitch. I even prefer a fairly low ratio reel. I fish in northeast Kansas where we consider 3 feet of visibility to be clear water so I don't need to bomb casts to avoid spooking the fish. A 7-10mph wind with gusts to 15 mph is a pretty typical day so keeping things down out of the wind is important. The heaviest thing I throw is typically a 1/16 oz jig with a 2 3/4 inch plastic on it and I need to put it within a few inches my target to get a strike which a good percentage of the time will happen on the initial fall. The jig head I'm throwing has a thin wire #4 or #6 hook and doesn't require much if any hook set. That said, I suspect that an efficient guide train will result in more accurate casts without putting a lot of line in the air to get blown around. As for personal preference, I'm old and set in my ways and the only rod I've ever owned that was longer than 6 feet has a fly reel on it. :)

Thanks again,
Brett

Brett, if you aren't too old to consider trying something new, a lot of what you are describing screams "BFS" baitcaster. The better reels are costly. Some on line searching will turn up some cheap options to see if you want to splurge on a good reel. I hear the Daiwa Alphas Air Stream is the cats meow FWIW.

Although we didn't call it such at the time, I suppose my fist foray was a Shimano bantam back in the late 70's. It would cast an 1/8 ounce jig just fine. Spooled with 6# test and mated to a 7' fenwick rod it was a crappie killing machine in Tenn. reservoirs.

Russ in Hollywood, FL.

Ambient temperature makes a BIG difference in the flexibility - and thus the "fishability" of any monofilament line, as any winter steelhead angler is aware. Good advice about tackle requires knowledge about the abilities of the angler as well as the environment in which this tackle will be used.