Torsion on a rod blank doesn't damage the blank unless the blank actually twists. If it's not twisting, regardless of how much you perceive it may want to, you're fine.


................

Phil Ewanicki Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fighting a big fish [6+ lbs.] with spiral-wrapped
> guides puts a lot of torque all in one direction
> on a rod blank. Would it be better to spiral
> guides halfway down the blank in one direction,
> then spiral guides in the opposite direction down
> the rest of the rod to ease the torsion on the
> blank?

No sir. On my rods there is no torsion or torque on one side of the rod blank. The load is all carried directly beneath the blank in the tip and 180's. If you observe my line flow through the transition guides going into the 180's on the under side of the blank there is absolutely no leverage action happening at all. Does not exist. Zero torque. Load explicitly carried by tip and 180's only. Follow line back to reel through transition guides and you do not see any side loading of any guides being "torqued" on as levers. It is not happening on my rods. Not an issue Phil.

Find just one guide on this rod being used by the line as a lever trying to twist the blank in any way... it does not exist! On this rod I could remove the transition guides and let the line flow into just the 180's and the results would be the same. Zero torque and zero twisting directed on the blank. Does not exist.



Now if you want to see some incorrectly made spiral wrapped rods where there is "load" placed sideways on transition guides that do direct some torque or twisting force on the blank here are some, but these are NOT Cagey Hook Wrap method rods:





But like Tom said, unless the blank gives in to the torquing forces it is not an issue, merely an incorrect way of carrying load dynamics on a rod blank.

When a rod builder follows the Don Morton authored rules, there is no torque twisting on the blank:

1. The line should run as straight as possible from the reel to the tip of the rod.
2. The line should form as small of an angle as possible with each guide.
3. The line should touch only the top or bottom of the guides in any fishing position.

Rule #3 above is the key critical rule to follow to completely eliminate any torque or twisting forces directed on the blank. The line under load flowing through each guide does one of 2 things... it is either a 100% direct pull load on the blank, or a 100% direct push load on the blank. At no time is there any side leveraging load torque applied nor directed to the rod blank. This is all eliminated following Don Morton's rules as a guide.

Jeff, the OP in this thread confirmed this in his original post:

"But the one thing I had become accustom too was the torque generated when setting the hook, and these were serious try to remove their jaw hook sets, no braid then. The absolute second I set the hook with Kent's spiraled rod, I was in shock. Where was the twist, where was the reposition the reel in my hand moment? Kent is not paying me enough to embellish on the moment of truth hook set, I'm just sharing my experience."

And that is my experience as well. The load dynamics of my method does not have any torquing or twisting to feel or experience. And as a fish bite the bait and the rod loads up it is a smooth balanced transition into loading.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 01/28/2021 01:52PM by Kent Griffith.

Please, y'all do your selves a favor and try one. Please don't let me brag on how many bass I've caught here in Florida, I was awed that the feel from retrieve to hook set could be so smooth. So, let the results speak for themselves. Herbert Spensor,"contempt prior to investigation."

Or, if you are catching big fish - what is the resultant torque if there is no spiral wrapped guides at all?

As a rule I do not build many light weight bass rods. For saltwater casting rods I do not like putting any guides off-axis which I why I stick with the SimpleSpiral. No off-axis guides. But it is important to realize that there is no one-size-fits-all spiral wrap system. You have to use the one that works best for the type rod and type fishing being done.

roger wilson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Or, if you are catching big fish - what is the
> resultant torque if there is no spiral wrapped
> guides at all?


If the guides are on top of the rod, the lever arm effect created by those guides will attempt to twist the rod 180 degrees, or to whatever amount places them facing the direction the load is coming from.

.................

Something that seems to be ignored by these arguments is that with very small guides, like micros, close to the blank, the torque everyone is trying to eliminate is very small. Even my pretty powerful magbass cast rod with micros on top doesn't give me perceivable torque in the hand. And with the lighter powers, the same is true. I also have seen the tip on my light power Loomis BC rod twisted 180 degrees, and it doesn't seem to care. No damage. And I'm not feeling any twist/torque.

With a heavy power salt jigging rod, with big, high, guides, it has to be an entirely different situation.

Exactly. The lower the guides sit to the surface of the blank, the less level arm effect you have. But it's still there.

No doubt, and often overlooked, is that the spiral wrap actually has far greater impact on heavy saltwater rods.

............

How much farther (on the average) will a spiral-guide rod cast than an inline-guide rod built on the same blank? How much more accurate is a spiral-guide rod than an in-line guide rod? If not providing increased distance and/or accuracy in measured feet and inches what other proven benefit(s) does a spiral guide rod offer?

Phil Ewanicki Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How much farther (on the average) will a
> spiral-guide rod cast than an inline-guide rod
> built on the same blank?

Not one inch further that I am aware of.

>How much more accurate is
> a spiral-guide rod than an in-line guide rod?

Accuracy is up to the angler.

> If
> not providing increased distance and/or accuracy
> in measured feet and inches what other proven
> benefit(s) does a spiral guide rod offer?

From the article:

1)To avoid, to correct, and to solve negative rod twisting and torquing.

2)To reduce line flow friction/resistance under load.

3)To prevent line flow from touching rod blank between all the conventional guides on the curved top of the blank when under load.

And this helps to prevent line chaffing.

Spiral wraps are made mainly for improved load handling more than anything else.





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/2021 07:00AM by Kent Griffith.

Phil Ewanicki Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How much farther (on the average) will a
> spiral-guide rod cast than an inline-guide rod
> built on the same blank? How much more accurate is
> a spiral-guide rod than an in-line guide rod? If
> not providing increased distance and/or accuracy
> in measured feet and inches what other proven
> benefit(s) does a spiral guide rod offer?


The purpose of the spiral wrap on casting rods is to eliminate rod twist from the lever arm effect of the guides. This can be significant particularly against large, powerful fish.

........

If you have ever spin fished, you understand the stabiity of a spiral wrap rod..they are very similar especially under load..

Saltwater big-game anglers are slow to adopt spiral wraps - if at all - although they catch incredibly strong fish which weigh several hundred pounds. Why do you suppose they ignore the benefits of a spiral-wraped rod to catch really BIG fish?

At least half the large saltwater rods I built were spiral wrapped and most anglers who bought them wanted nothing else but spirals afterwards.

You also have that fact that as you move up the scale to the most powerful rods, guide options are somewhat limited, which makes spiral wrapping some of those really heavy rods difficult to do. Thus, they have gimbals fitted to prevent twist.

If the idea is to downplay the usefulness of the spiral wrap - forget it. You can't do it. It's just a fact that it does what it is intended to do and does it remarkably well.

..............

I have been asked in several emails how to construct a Cagey Hook Wrap, and all I can say is it is in the article. Ask Tom for a copy of the magazine or email me as I am presently working on a more detailed "technical manual" type of approach to this build.

It is not something that can just be laid out or guides set at predetermined angles. This method follows straight path line flow under load which is key to the ultimate in spiral wrapping.

I can say a build like this one is a reverse of the standard spiral wraps. One has to start at the tip and work backwards towards the reel for the ideal guide placements. One has to also find the correct aim spot on the blank based on that rod's unique bend or curve under load to achieve the maximum results in a stretched out spiral transition leading to the straightest line flow path under load.

I detailed it all in the article...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2021 05:42PM by Kent Griffith.

It is a reverse on some of the standard spiral wraps. Several newer ones allow for and create a straight line path under load. There are probably two dozen individual spiral wrapping systems around now. I thought that Kent's was worth adding to the mix.

...........

And I greatly appreciate you adding it to the mix Tom! I am already getting calls and emails from across the country on it.

It is gratifying to know that others see the merit of the results, and are wanting to build their own rods trying to achieve similar results for themselves.

And Tom, I sure wish there was one single place where all of the various methods you mentioned could be viewed and even compared to one another. Presently seeking them out is rather tedious as what I am finding is scattered all over the place. And if there are 2 dozen methods, I'd like to learn what they are and where they can be found.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/30/2021 05:47PM by Kent Griffith.

When you put the butt guides 20" out rfom the reel, you are reducing the hook setting power...you are getting your power more from the rods belly and tip and less from the rods butt end..the hook set becomes less solid and less torque but the hook will get set and require more sets to be sure..in the days of glass the butt guides ran deeper to use much more of the blank butt, this caused many graphite rod failures when they were introduced..so graphite rod makers moved the butt guides towards the tip to soften hook sets some and blank makers used more glass in their graphite blanks along with lower modulus graphite..i build mostly glass rods now and was quite surprised how much more power you can get with the guides moved back towards the butt, even in glass..

If the rod doesn't twist - the is nothing to worry about. "Torsion on the blank" is of no concern if the rod doesn't twist.

............

Kent Griffith Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And I greatly appreciate you adding it to the mix
> Tom! I am already getting calls and emails from
> across the country on it.
>
> It is gratifying to know that others see the merit
> of the results, and are wanting to build their own
> rods trying to achieve similar results for
> themselves.
>
> And Tom, I sure wish there was one single place
> where all of the various methods you mentioned
> could be viewed and even compared to one another.
> Presently seeking them out is rather tedious as
> what I am finding is scattered all over the place.
> And if there are 2 dozen methods, I'd like to
> learn what they are and where they can be found.

Kent,

There is a RodMaker issue that covers most of the popular ones, but even that one is about 10 years ago so it may be time for an update with an overview on all the methods.

.............